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Originally Posted by yaqh
FP is defined on pg 56, but it's basically just alternately calculating maximally exploitative strategies, plus mixing.
Oh, that?
Well, with that I can help you out a bit.
In general, you will virtually never reach the optimal strategy by alternating maximally exploitative strategies. What will happen most of the time, is that you'll be reaching the extremes and then continue swinging indefinitely between various extremes. Maximally adjusting to what Villain is doing doesn't necessarily lead you closer to the solution; it leads you in a random direction which is sometimes closer, sometimes further.
Eg, you cannot solve a spot (not even a river spot) by just doing "max xploit" in crev for the SB and then the BB and then the SB.... CREV can calculate these swings and adjustments, but it does not lead to a solution.
You can check out these videos for the examples on it -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDGzYjRsfq4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTe-Ny3JUQ8
And if you got CREV I can ship you this particular tree and you can run max xplt OTR all day to see.
Scylla also describes in what way to use CREV to find equilibriums in those two vids IIRC.
I am surprised it worked in that trip jacks example in your book; in all the spots I've analyzed, you can almost never successfully equilibrate that way.
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Not sure how you figure this, but I don't think it's right. If we have 70% equity on the river, it means something like we're ahead of 70% of Villain's hands. But once Villain folds the bottom half of his range, we're only ahead of 20% of the remaining 50%. In other words, we have about 40% equity versus his calling range, which I doubt is enough for a vbet...
Right, got it. I misread that from the graph and somehow saw some of the top 30% SB's hands as being "behind" the 70% equity BB's holdings. Visual trick on me.
So 75% equity should do the trick then, I'd assume (at least theoretically, IP and for PSB, OOP I know it's a bit different)?
I figured at least this part should be simple.. I mean, it is step 1 in your outline after we covered the structure of the process!
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I'll take a closer look, tho, if you post the exact ranges.
Here they are, copypasted from EVdis -
AA,T6s-T7s,75s,T7o,75o,65o,AcKc,KcTc+,KcTd+,AcKh,KcTh+,Ac Ks,KcTs+,AdKc,AdTd-AdQd,9d5d-9d6d,7d4d,6d3d,AdKh,AdKs,AhKc,KhTc+,KhTd+,AhKh,KhT h+,AhKs,KhTs+,AsKc,KsTc+,KsTd+,AsKh,KsTh+,AsTs+,Ks Ts+,QsJs,8s4s-8s6s,7s4s,6s3s,9d9c,9h9c,9h9d,KsKc,KhKc,KhKs
AA,QTs+,JTs,QTo+,JTo,Ac9c,Kc2c+,Qc9c,Jc9c,Tc9c,9c7 c+,Ac9d,Kc9d+,Qc9d,Jc9d,Tc9d,Ac9h,Kc8h+,Qc9h,Jc9h, Tc9h,9c8h,Kc8s,KcTs+,9c8s,Ad9c,Qd9c,Jd9c,Td9c,9d8c ,Ad2d-Ad7d,Ad9d-AdJd,Qd2d,Qd9d,Jd9d,Td9d,9d7d,Ad9h,Qd9h,Jd9h,Td9h, 9d8h,9d8s,Ah9c,Kh8c+,Qh9c,Jh9c,Th9c,9h8c,Ah9d,Kh9d +,Qh9d,Jh9d,Th9d,Ah9h,Kh2h-Kh3h,Kh5h+,Qh9h,Jh9h,Th9h,9h7h+,Kh8s,KhTs+,9h8s,As 9c,Ks8c+,Qs9c,Js9c,Ts9c,As9d,Ks9d+,Qs9d,Js9d,Ts9d, As9h,Ks8h+,Qs9h,Js9h,Ts9h,As3s-As8s,AsTs-AsJs,Ks3s-Ks8s,KsTs+,Qs3s-Qs8s,Js8s,Ts8s,8s7s,7s6s,6s5s,5s4s,8s8c,8h8c,8h8s, 9d9c,9h9c,9h9d
Pot size 74bbs, remaining stack sizes 63 bbs.
The candidate strategy I got has BB leading out with all TP+ and 45% of his high card holdings. Total of 68% of the time.
He checks 32%, and calls SB's bets with any pair.
BB isn't checkcalling "enough", but the strat is not possible to exploit much and is quite robust. It nets him 28.9 bbs.
If I push down KTo, which has 70% equity, into his xC range instead of his betting range I am not able to get as much EV out of the spot (even after I modified his bluffing range), which goes in line with OOP players being forced to valuebet a bit looser.
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Well, as I mentioned, I don't think that's quite right (see the discussion of river thin value betting criteria, pg 281), but even if it were, it just leads to the question -- how do you know SB's calling range?
Don't we know it always? I thought that the SB's calling range was always the top 50% of his hands. Assuming indifference doesn't break down and the bet was a PSB.
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Anyway, that line of reasoning was just meant to demonstrate how all the parts of the players' strategies fit together here. If you want to actually solve it, write down the 6 indifference equations and solve them simultaneously.
I'm stubborn enough that I'd probably be doing that by now. But, based on how this type of stuff has been going for me so far, I am uncertain that I'd manage to come to a decent solution without making mistakes along the way (which I couldn't spot myself), and certain it'd take me an assload of time, judging by how much it takes me to work, compose and proofread these posts using the tools I'm versed at.
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Well, neglecting blockers and assuming the distributions are conducive to BB even having a betting range, this indifference should hold for the majority of SB's hands. But we can skip the step of working with any particular SB holding by just choosing the ratio of BB vbets to BB bluffs equal to pot odds the SB will be getting.
Right, I understand (and the part about "BB even having a betting range" is duly noted).
That'll work and is simple enough.
"This many vbets, so with these odds add this many bluffs."
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The BB's nuts will, of course, just take which-ever line gets the SB to put in a bet most often. And not only his nuts, but also anything strong enough that it "wants" to put a bet in and is guaranteed to get the chance to do so whenever Villain has a better hand. Such a hand will always take whichever line gets SB to put a bet in most often. And, for symmetric distns at least, this turns out to be a lot of hands.
So... if SB called even slightly more when facing a bet than he bets when checked to, BB would always bet w/ all these hands. And so BB's checking range would be capped, often pretty low. So then the SB would be able to bet a lot more, valuebet thinner etc. I.e. he'd bet more often when checked to. So basically, if SB calls even slightly less than he bets, BB's counter strategy incentivizes him to start betting more often. And vice versa.
Ofc this is all assuming certain things are true about the distributions... BB actually has strong hands for the SB to worry about, etc.
Yes, I believe that with your help I understand all this.
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yes
npnp, I learn a lot from working these things out. I guess I have a tendency to pull out the big guns when I want to solve these sorts of situations myself .