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Old 06-22-2009, 04:00 PM   #1
Gonzirra
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Re: Advanced Pot-Limit Omaha: Small Ball and Short-Handed Play

My copy arrived today. I'm not going to do full-on reviews of any more poker books since I do have some interest in them, and I haven't read it yet anyway.

Two things jumped out at me right away, just observations for people who care about this sort of thing...

The first is that the book is pretty fat. Here it is next to a copy of HEFAP for a sense of scale:



Second, the interior layout of it is easily the nicest I've seen in the inside of a poker book, kudos to whoever did that. It has a very clean/modern look (I assume Jeff won't mind a photo). Very neat and easy on the eyes.



I'll leave the strat content to everyone else. Also Deac, maybe we could close this thread down in favor of an actual review thread once people start getting copies.
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Old 06-22-2009, 06:55 PM   #2
quadaces9999
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Advanced Pot-Limit Omaha: Small Ball and Short-Handed Play Reviews

I have the book and i have just finished reading it. Its a great read and i could not put the book down. This is a small review. After i study more and read the book a couple more times i will give a more in depth review.


First off the cover is beautiful. The typeset and layout inside the book is also very nice. Like Gonso said very easy to read and almost every hand example has the full face pictured cards as you see in the picture Gonzo put on here. Outstanding work. The book is Huge it is 544 pages so it has plenty of information inside.

There are a lot of concepts in the book that i have never seen before in print for PLO. Such as SPR, floating,3 betting, small ball and a few more. The concepts are explained in a well thought out matter and are very easy to understand. After each concept explained the author has listed a good amount of hand examples which are related to the concept just explained. Although the hand examples do not question what you would do in the hand it rather explains the authors thought process thru-out the hand.

Regarding the hand examples,alot of them teach me something new and for the others they are just a confirmation of what i know and I nod my head in agreement with the author's thought process.

The largest section of book is the shorthanded play section. There are a few pages of concepts of shorthanded play 6 max and the meat of it is the 128 hand examples of shorthanded play 6 max. It astonishing on the amount of hand examples are in this section Kudos for the author and addressing Shorthanded 6 max play.

The author also teaches some bankroll management and managing our self. Examples are the Bankroll schedule, moving up to fast,slowing down, growing at your own pace, the biggest bankroll killer:the heater. , staying in school, and poker as a career.

All in all i give the book a 9.5 out of 10. The book is very well written, there are tons of hand examples and this is a complete Advanced PLO book, It seems to cover Advanced PLO from A to Z . Trust me This is a must get for every serious PLO player.

Mods please transfer my review to the new thread if you decide we need a review thread for this book. Thank you.

Last edited by quadaces9999; 06-22-2009 at 07:22 PM.
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Old 06-23-2009, 12:00 PM   #3
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Re: Advanced Pot-Limit Omaha: Small Ball and Short-Handed Play Reviews

What would you say would have made the book a 10/10? Or is no book a 10 and that's why you gave it a 9.5?
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Old 06-23-2009, 04:45 PM   #4
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Re: Advanced Pot-Limit Omaha: Small Ball and Short-Handed Play Reviews

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What would you say would have made the book a 10/10? Or is no book a 10 and that's why you gave it a 9.5?
I would have liked a little of the workbook material in here but the book was already to swollen at 540 + pages. So its not really there fault. I guess will have to wait for volume2 for the workbook.
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Old 06-23-2009, 05:31 PM   #5
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Re: Advanced Pot-Limit Omaha: Small Ball and Short-Handed Play Reviews

Ok i tried to use some of the concepts i read in the book last night and today. I first started at .05/.10 6max on pokerstars. I did not have a chance to really do floating or 3 betting at this level. Although i only played about 700 hands at this level. that's 4 tabling for about 3 hours.

In order to float or 3 bet your going to need a table full of weak tight players. Most players here were loose passive, tight aggressive and loose aggressive.

For example I'm on button with a mediocre hand. UTG1 would fold, UTG2 would Fold, the cutoff would raise 3 big blinds, and i would 3 bet to isolate the cutoff, the small blind called the big blind called. Now im stuck in a pot with a mediocre hand with 4 players to see the flop. Not the best situation.


Another example UTG1 raises, UTG2 folds, Cutoff calls, i 3bet from the button with a mediocre hand to isolate, small button calls my 3bet, the BB folds and UTG1 re raises the pot, cutoff calls now what for me i have to fold and lose my 3bet. But keep in mind this is only for .05/.10 and below and maybe some .15/.25

So floating and 3 betting is not just going to work very well at the lower end of the micro levels there are just to many calling stations and looses players. Although you maybe get lucky and find one were you can apply these concepts.

Although i did lose some money with my failed 3 betting and floates i did end up winning overall with 2 buy ins for profit. The concepts in the book that helped me get some of that profit are, Following through:the betting machine, value betting, SPR, Check calling and small ball (minus the floating and 3 betting) and a few more.

I was really anxious to get this 3 betting and floating working so i moved over to full tilt and went up a few stakes to .25/.50 now this is were the 3 betting and floating started to work. I 4 tabled for about 5 hours at this level.
Try to find the deepstack tables that way your not playing against a bunch of shortstacks.

This is were i could totally use all the concepts found in the book. Now don't get me wrong there are some very strong players here but your not going to see as much multiway pots here so you can float much more. And your 3 bets have more value to them if you apply them right. Just make sure your floating on weaker players.

All in all i ended up winning close to 3 buy ins at this level. Maybe some of it was lucky but i know i did gain some profits from some of the moves i learned from the book.

Although this book is not for a beginner PLO player its more for that intermediate player who is looking to take his game to a Advanced level.

For myself i have been playing PLO for a good 2 to 3 years and i have not progressed the way i wanted to (still stuck in the micros). Hopefully by studying and applying the concepts in this book ill be ready to take that next big step up.

Last edited by quadaces9999; 06-23-2009 at 05:44 PM.
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Old 06-23-2009, 05:46 PM   #6
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Re: Advanced Pot-Limit Omaha: Small Ball and Short-Handed Play Reviews

Ok i tried to use some of the concepts i read in the book last night and today. I first started at .05/.10 6max on pokerstars. I did not have a chance to really do floating or 3 betting at this level. Although i only played about 700 hands at this level. that's 4 tabling for about 3 hours.

In order to float or 3 bet your going to need a table full of weak tight players. Most players here were loose passive, tight aggressive and loose aggressive.
For example i would be on the button with a mediocre hand and UTG1 would fold. UTG2 would Fold the cutoff would raise 3 big blinds and i would 3 bet to isolate the small blind called the big blind called. Now im stuck in a pot with a mediocre hand with 4 players to see the flop. Not the best situation.

Another example UTG1 raises, UTG2 folds, Cutoff calls, i 3bet from the button with a mediocre hand to isolate, small button calls my 3bet, the BB folds and UTG1 re raises the pot, cutoff calls now what for me i have to fold and lose my 3bet. But keep in mind this is only for .05/.10 and below and maybe some .15/.25

Although i did lose some money with my failed 3 betting and floates i did end up winning overall with 2 buy ins for profit. The concepts in the book that helped me get some of that profit are Following through:the betting machine, value betting, SPR, Check calling and small ball (minus the floating and 3 betting).

I was really anxious to get this 3 betting and floating working so i moved over to full tilt and went up a few stakes to .25/.50 now this is were the 3 betting and floating started to work. I 4 tabled for about 5 hours at this level.
Try to find the deepstack tables that way your not playing against a bunch of shortstacks.

This is were i could totally use all the concepts found in the book. Now don't get me wrong there are some very strong players here but your not going to see as much multiway pots here so you can float much more. And your 3 bets have more value to them if you apply them right. Just make sure your floating on weaker players.

All in all i ended up winning close to 3 buy ins at this level. Maybe some of it was lucky but i know i did gain some profits from some of the moves i learned from the book.

Although this book is not for a beginner PLO player its more for that intermediate player who is looking to take his game to a Advanced level.

For myself i have been playing PLO for a good 2 to 3 years and i have not progressed the way i wanted to (still stuck in the micros). Hopefully by studying and applying the concepts in this book ill be ready to take that next big step up.
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Old 06-24-2009, 03:10 AM   #7
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Re: Advanced Pot-Limit Omaha: Small Ball and Short-Handed Play Reviews

thx for your lines... will buy it now
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Old 06-24-2009, 06:12 PM   #8
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Re: Advanced Pot-Limit Omaha: Small Ball and Short-Handed Play Reviews

quadaces, thanks for your reviews and your candor on your PLO career... i've done well at micro ($10) and then been absolutely destroyed at $50. barely words to describe how badly i've done.

a couple of basic observations,

i've done ok playing very TAG. very tight and quite aggressive.

some intelligent LAG's seem to just kill the game, but i haven't been able to come close to replicate it.

hence, the need for jeff and rolf's books..... i am somewhat concerned about the amount of rake paid. as players get better, not sure how much potential they'll be after the rake.
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Old 06-24-2009, 07:42 PM   #9
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Re: Advanced Pot-Limit Omaha: Small Ball and Short-Handed Play Reviews

There are still some bad players. Table selection is very important.

IF your a TAG you might find it better to select tables that have the highest player per flop % with a lower $ per pot average. This usually indicates loose passive play. Your normally going to get paid off by weak players who cant lay down under sets, two pair ,sucker straights and lower flushes. Just bet for value they will call. No slow play. This is the type of table im looking for first.

Tables that have a higher player per flop% and higher$ per pot average are going to have lots of loose players, some LAG and some Loose Passive. You need good experience if you want to play in these. Your going to see lots of raising and re raising preflop and sometimes you will get caught up and start playing to loose. If you play a shorter stack such as a 50 BB stack then you can get away here by playing good hands as you will have a low SPR and will be getting the best of it in multiway pots. The danger is if you have a deep stack then your going to want to limp with good hands more while throwing away marginal hands. Reason why you limp is for pot control. You know most the time someone is going to raise so we let them do the pre flop raising for us. Its very hard to 3 bet and isolate on this type of table full of LAG and calling stations.

Now you got the tighter tables. Lower player per flop% and Lower $ per pot average. This is were the floating and 3 betteing is going to work more often.
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Old 06-25-2009, 02:28 AM   #10
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Re: Advanced Pot-Limit Omaha: Small Ball and Short-Handed Play Reviews

Gonso and quadaces, thanks for the pics, and the review.

I've been dabbling in nano-stakes PLO and already had this on my 'to read' list but this has really wet my appetite. Looking forward to getting my hands on this.

Thanks again.
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Old 06-27-2009, 02:10 AM   #11
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Re: Advanced Pot-Limit Omaha: Small Ball and Short-Handed Play Reviews

I just studied 3 more concepts Positional advantage:Ambiguous Bet ,Playing the nut Flush Draw and SPR. I never thought of it this way in PLO. Really good stuff there.
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Old 06-27-2009, 12:39 PM   #12
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Re: Advanced Pot-Limit Omaha: Small Ball and Short-Handed Play Reviews

Amazon was sold out of this yesterday. I will go by my local store to see if I can get a copy. Hopefully it's in stock.
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Old 06-27-2009, 12:46 PM   #13
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Re: Advanced Pot-Limit Omaha: Small Ball and Short-Handed Play Reviews

if I am a omaha noob should i get this one or hwang's other omaha book?
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Old 06-27-2009, 01:03 PM   #14
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Re: Advanced Pot-Limit Omaha: Small Ball and Short-Handed Play Reviews

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if I am a omaha noob should i get this one or hwang's other omaha book?
The other one first then this one.
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Old 06-27-2009, 11:44 PM   #15
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Re: Advanced Pot-Limit Omaha: Small Ball and Short-Handed Play Reviews

I just finished his first book and l thought it was very good. I have started to play PLO8 at micro stakes the last two months and love it. His section in the back of the first book was short but sweet. Is there any advanced info on PLO8 in his latest book?
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Old 06-28-2009, 10:47 AM   #16
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Re: Advanced Pot-Limit Omaha: Small Ball and Short-Handed Play Reviews

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I just finished his first book and l thought it was very good. I have started to play PLO8 at micro stakes the last two months and love it. His section in the back of the first book was short but sweet. Is there any advanced info on PLO8 in his latest book?
AFAIK, there isn't...

Recently another 2p2er came out w/ PLO8 ebook, but I'll leave it up to you to find it...
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Old 06-30-2009, 06:04 PM   #17
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Re: Advanced Pot-Limit Omaha: Small Ball and Short-Handed Play Reviews

Anyone else that owns the book notice on pages 48, 62, and 388-412 that the text on the top of the left pages went from "Advanced Pot-Limit Omaha Volume 1" to "Internet Texas Hold'em"?
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Old 06-30-2009, 06:31 PM   #18
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Re: Advanced Pot-Limit Omaha: Small Ball and Short-Handed Play Reviews

Yes - Jeff and I noticed it. Lil something to get fixed on next printing. You have a collectors item! loltemplateaments.
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Old 06-30-2009, 06:35 PM   #19
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Re: Advanced Pot-Limit Omaha: Small Ball and Short-Handed Play Reviews

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Anyone else that owns the book notice on pages 48, 62, and 388-412 that the text on the top of the left pages went from "Advanced Pot-Limit Omaha Volume 1" to "Internet Texas Hold'em"?
Wow nice catch, I probably would have never noticed that. LOL @ Matt sneaking in subliminal advertising for his hold'em book

The good news is that there'll never be a question that you own a first-print first-edition copy.
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Old 06-30-2009, 10:14 PM   #20
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Re: Advanced Pot-Limit Omaha: Small Ball and Short-Handed Play Reviews

That's true!

Now I just need it to be as popular as SS.
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Old 07-03-2009, 01:25 AM   #21
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Re: Advanced Pot-Limit Omaha: Small Ball and Short-Handed Play Reviews

Just got it today from Amazon. Read Part 1 which is about Floating. I tried a few of his plays with moderate success today. It definitely opened my eyes to some profitable situations that I hadn't considered. One hand Jeff talked about is SB vs. BB with hero in the BB with a hand like KQJ3 or something like that. SB raises, hero calls. Flop is 922, SB bets. Jeff advocates floating here. I hadn't really tried much of that and would just give up. Turn is an Ace, which to me seems like a terrible card. SB checks, hero bets, SB folds. Interesting.....

Going to try to keep reading a section every day or two and will have more thoughts for the forum.
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Old 07-03-2009, 04:42 PM   #22
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Re: Advanced Pot-Limit Omaha: Small Ball and Short-Handed Play Reviews

I have read the book and gone over some of the hand examples and here is my take on it so far.

the first thing is to point out the differnces between the small ball approach of daniel negrenu where you are the one who is raising 3 bbs preflop and betting half pot on the flop as you making jabs and stabs at the pot.
the small ball approach here is calling raises in position, or keeping the pot small preflop to you get to the flop. if you think of it,, if someone raises you on preflop 3 bbs in no limit and you call on the button it is the same thing.
so I went to my preconcieved notions that I would be learning a 3 bb preflop, bet half pot, on the flop, and turn robotic system to a more thinking approach while achieving our goal of keeping the pot small.

the reccomendation before the short handed section of the book heartedly encourages you to read all sections before you start and I must agree to start at the beginning.
I must admit that i find myself seeing the small ball section first then the floating section for i want some semibluffing opportunities and the floating section takes a lot of heart.
but it is very logical as well for you are learning to play the player and not the board and that is necessary in six max games.

so what things blew my mind ?
I had made a bet with my friends that this book would encourage you to come out betting 3 bbs from utg for example and so I was pleasantly surpised at some of the things he covered.

for me one big huge thing is the "The Pivot Card" and to me it made so sense when I went back mentally and looked at some people hands that called down and backdoor two pair or trips, flushes, and straights.

for the floating tactic,, I think many bankrolls will take huge swings as they pratice this, yet it is kind of a school of hard knocks that is necessary to get better.

for me the preflop strategy of small ball and three bet will help me to redefine my hand strategies and also using the spr to define what hands I am willing to stack off with it on the river and to call/raise preflop with.

it is indeed a textbook on how to play much like the hoh series 1,2,3 or the hoc ,1,2.
and though it wasnt' written as one book split up like the hoc for some time has passed,,
it does flow like that in concepts, and building on the previous book.

I for one think that every six max omaha player/student of the game who is learning it should pick this up, and even those who have been playing for some time should pick it up to look for leaks in their game.

and so I can't wait for the sequal "advanced pot-limit omaha volume two:LAG Play and Short-handed workbook" 2009.
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Old 07-03-2009, 07:04 PM   #23
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Re: Advanced Pot-Limit Omaha: Small Ball and Short-Handed Play Reviews

Yes I love the SPR stuff in this book. Jeff nice way to turn a common no limit holdem concept like SPR into a pot limit omaha concept.
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Old 07-06-2009, 11:15 AM   #24
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Re: Advanced Pot-Limit Omaha: Small Ball and Short-Handed Play Reviews

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Yes I love the SPR stuff in this book. Jeff nice way to turn a common no limit holdem concept like SPR into a pot limit omaha concept.
Thanks, though I would tend to think of it more as a general "poker" concept that applies to big-bet poker games rather than an NLHE-specific or PLO-specific concept. I do think the concept is even more useful in explaining PLO than NLHE, however, primarily due to the pot-limit betting structure and the tendency for players to bet the full pot in PLO.

Jeff
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Old 07-08-2009, 03:42 AM   #25
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Re: Advanced Pot-Limit Omaha: Small Ball and Short-Handed Play Reviews

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Just got it today from Amazon. Read Part 1 which is about Floating. I tried a few of his plays with moderate success today. It definitely opened my eyes to some profitable situations that I hadn't considered. One hand Jeff talked about is SB vs. BB with hero in the BB with a hand like KQJ3 or something like that. SB raises, hero calls. Flop is 922, SB bets. Jeff advocates floating here. I hadn't really tried much of that and would just give up. Turn is an Ace, which to me seems like a terrible card. SB checks, hero bets, SB folds. Interesting.....

Going to try to keep reading a section every day or two and will have more thoughts for the forum.
This example was a great example of my only complaint of the book.

In most of his hand examples, jeff assumes his opponents are pretty dumb, transparent and tight.
A lot of times he makes a play at a pot where it would make no sense for him to have a good hand whatsoever (although he does mention it a few times).

Against an agressive player, that would be one of the few cards I WOULDN'T bet. Mainly because I expect a two barrel to try to get you off something like KK or QQ a large % of the time. When I see a check, I expect a bluff induce a large percentage of the time.

He does mention it in a few spots , but I wish a little more emphasis was put on what plays are good against a thinking opponent too...
As well as a few ways to balance your play if your opponents catch on.

But this is my only complaint, as overall the book is incredible. I'm learning a ton from it and would recommend it to anyone... Some concepts are just golden.
Highly highly recommended.
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