Zoom / Rush Poker thread - Page 376 - Beginning Poker Questions

That's kind of weakness, isn't? Good players are not supposed to use hot-keys?

Wut?

ty guys,
What about preflop raise and sizing?
About 100bb buy-in, Whenever I tried big stack strategy, I ended-up with tilt, I'm kind of comfortable with medium stack(50bb-), I know it's not optimal and reduces the win rate, but it also reduce variance and this way I tilt less.

will not reduce variance.

What do you mean? I think it does in dollar terms,
Suppose you lose 10 buy-in,
if it is 100bb: 10*100=1000bb
if it is 50bb: 10*50=500bb
500bb<1000bb
Maybe you mean the short/medium stack strategy does not reduce the variance? That I agree. It does not necessarily , it depends. I just buy-in for 50bb, that does not mean that I necessarily push/fold.
ps:
Sorry about english, it's not my first language.

Last edited by big_lebawski; 01-18-2013 at 06:25 AM.

Quote

01-18-2013 , 06:42 AM

#9377

chad0x001

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 8,558

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.Ertbjerg

then why aren't you betting turn bigger?

I thought half pot would do the job. Now looking at it and after hearing all your lots arguments Im torn, fold turn or bet bigger turn. Either way, I know I did it wrong and feel suitably chastised.

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01-18-2013 , 06:42 AM

#9378

LosingShark

adept

Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 1,008

50bbs is awkward for a bunch of reasons mainly spr, if your going to short-stack 40bb is prob optimal. also i dont mean to be rude, but i dont think you understand how short-stackers make profit. you will definately incounter more variance since you will be flipping way getting it in way lighter than you would 100bb deep, imo i think its way more +ev to just learn to play 100bb+ or move to hypers or cap games or some****.

also your english is fine

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01-18-2013 , 07:19 AM

#9379

big_lebawski

newbie

Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 24

Quote:

Originally Posted by LosingShark

Ty again for the answer,
I have another question, why most of you guys play short-handed(6max) zoom instead of full ring? It's just because of collecting more VPP?
Because I think variance in full ring is lower than 6max(or I'm wrong again?).
You know, I have a background of trading(forex,gold,...) that's why I'm so obsessed with variance(and also bankroll management). I'd do anything to reduce variance.

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01-18-2013 , 07:39 AM

#9380

A.Ertbjerg

Heisenbjerg

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 10,770

Quote:

Originally Posted by chad0x001

yeah when I bet turn, Im always barreling.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chad0x001

I thought half pot would do the job. Now looking at it and after hearing all your lots arguments Im torn, fold turn or bet bigger turn. Either way, I know I did it wrong and feel suitably chastised.

When you bet turn you were planning to triple barrel. So turn sizing isn't about what will do the job (getting him to fold on turn) because you really aren't expecting him to fold all that much. Turn sizing should be about how much you win on the river. Basically you are expecting to win your turnbet, not giving yourself a cheap price on a bluff.

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01-18-2013 , 07:43 AM

#9381

A.Ertbjerg

Heisenbjerg

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 10,770

FR is lower variance then 6-max and playing 50 bb deep is lower variance then 100 bb deep. LosingShark is wrong when he says otherwise.

That being said, your goal shouldn't be to reduce variance, it should be to maximize your winnings. Playing 50 bb deep may be the right way for you to maximize your winnings, I don't know. But you need to learn to accept variance and just use proper bank roll management to get through bad stretches.

Quote

01-18-2013 , 08:22 AM

#9382

Palikari

veteran

Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 3,394

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.Ertbjerg

and playing 50 bb deep is lower variance

Hm? I always thought short stacking would have higher variance. You end up way more often in preflop-All-In, coinflips or 60:40 situations where all the money goes in and we see a river more frequently overall. That should result in a higher variance, no? Is there a good thread on 2+2 on this? Couldn't find one.

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01-18-2013 , 08:33 AM

#9383

eXydos

newbie

Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 29

First hand with the guy. Would've folded if any spade but the ace hit the river. In retrospect I think I played fine until the river bet + call.

BTN: $1.49 (74.5 bb)
Hero (SB): $3.48 (174 bb)
BB: $1.09 (54.5 bb)
UTG: $1.67 (83.5 bb)
MP: $5.85 (292.5 bb)
CO: $2.03 (101.5 bb)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A

UTG folds, MP raises to $0.06, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.16, BB folds, MP calls $0.10

Flop: ($0.34) 9

(2 players)
Hero bets $0.22, MP calls $0.22

Turn: ($0.78) 3

(2 players)
Hero bets $0.60, MP calls $0.60

River: ($1.98) A

(2 players)
Hero bets $1, MP raises to $2.25, Hero calls $1.25

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01-18-2013 , 08:52 AM

#9384

A.Ertbjerg

Heisenbjerg

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 10,770

Quote:

Originally Posted by Palikari

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.Ertbjerg

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

This is for everyone, so the standard deviations aren't disproportionally affected by my more laggy style.

So standard deviations of 75bb/100 vs 40bb/100 for my database. Also note that I havent filtered the 6-max data so not everybody in the regular 6-max pool is playing full stacked. I would expect the standard deviation would be even higher if I filtered for 100+ bbs.

For reference I'm having a std dev of 40bb/100 for CAP games and about 110bb/100 for full stacked.

This is comparing CAP vs 100 bb, 50 bb deep would fall somewhere in between.

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01-18-2013 , 08:57 AM

#9385

Dunna100

Accept No Substitute

Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 6,168

Was doing some work on HM2 last night. Be interested to hear what people's fold to flop cbet and fold to turn cbet %s are at 6max?

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01-18-2013 , 08:57 AM

#9386

Burnss

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 4,539

Shortstacking talk or people thinking about shortstacking, need to gtfo out of mine and chads thread.

Quote

01-18-2013 , 09:01 AM

#9387

Palikari

veteran

Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 3,394

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.Ertbjerg

This is comparing CAP vs 100 bb, 50 bb deep would fall somewhere in between.

30k hands is a small samplesize to draw conclusions, no? It just seems so counterintuitive for me. Anyway. I don't want to derail this thread any longer. I'll leave it at that.

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01-18-2013 , 09:05 AM

#9388

oop u mad

journeyman

Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 262

I swear I don't even enjoy running good.. all I feel is guilt.

Poker Stars, $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #15544111

BTN: $6.61 (132.2 bb)
Hero (SB): $8.75 (175 bb)
BB: $5.27 (105.4 bb)
UTG: $9.48 (189.6 bb)
MP: $10.78 (215.6 bb)
CO: $8.07 (161.4 bb)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 3

2 folds, CO calls $0.05, BTN raises to $0.20, Hero calls $0.18, BB folds, CO calls $0.15

Flop: ($0.65) 5

(3 players)
Hero checks, CO checks, BTN checks

Turn: ($0.65) 5

(3 players)
Hero checks, CO checks, BTN bets $0.40, Hero raises to $1.05, CO calls $1.05, BTN folds

River: ($3.15) 3

(2 players)
Hero bets $2.20, CO calls $2.20

Spoiler:

Get the Flash Player to use the Hold'em Manager Replayer.

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01-18-2013 , 09:11 AM

#9389

Burnss

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 4,539

You both played the hand aids.

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01-18-2013 , 09:12 AM

#9390

Mr Blonde

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 3,749

sunrunner speaks truth

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01-18-2013 , 09:15 AM

#9391

oop u mad

journeyman

Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 262

Which added to the guilt I feel

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01-18-2013 , 09:17 AM

#9392

A.Ertbjerg

Heisenbjerg

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 10,770

Quote:

Originally Posted by Palikari

30k hands is a small samplesize to draw conclusions, no? It just seems so counterintuitive for me. Anyway. I don't want to derail this thread any longer. I'll leave it at that.

nah, 30k hands is enough to give a good estimate. It really shouldn't be that counter intuitive. 40bb/100 in CAP games is also 2 BI/100 compared to 0.75BI/100 100 bb deep.

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01-18-2013 , 09:37 AM

#9393

chiego

banned

Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 3,703

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.Ertbjerg

no, you'll have more variance the shorter you are, since most of your decisions are either to get aipf preflop or on the flop. there is much less skill involved with playing short which results in the fact that its impossible to have a similar winrate to guys who play at least 100bbs deep

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01-18-2013 , 09:46 AM

#9394

big_lebawski

newbie

Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 24

Quote:

Originally Posted by chiego

What about needbeer (WizardOfAhhs)?

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=228

he said:
It probably isn't fair for me to make a generalization about the masses as some 100bb players will be the exception to the rule, and some SS'ers will be the exception.
From my experience there isn't much of a difference between the top SS'ers and 100bb players relative to overall poker IQ. Both are accurate with preflop 3bet ranges, and both are good at postflop play (pot control, etc.)

By the way, thank you guys, it's really great that you high-stake players answer to our questions, I really appreciate that.

Last edited by big_lebawski; 01-18-2013 at 09:53 AM.

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01-18-2013 , 09:48 AM

#9395

gamma001

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 4,144

@ chad. When you bluff the turn planning to tripple barrel the riv, your turn bluff is actually considered a value bet. You want him to call then fold to a riv bet so the more you bet OTT the more profit you make.

More info in grindcores vid http://www.deucescracked.com/videos/...-and-Practicum

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01-18-2013 , 10:09 AM

#9396

Palikari

veteran

Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 3,394

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burnss

Shortstacking talk or people thinking about shortstacking, need to gtfo out of mine and chads thread.

shortstackers confirmed pure evil

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01-18-2013 , 10:10 AM

#9397

LosingShark

adept

Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 1,008

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.Ertbjerg

nah, 30k hands is enough to give a good estimate. It really shouldn't be that counter intuitive. 40bb/100 in CAP games is also 2 BI/100 compared to 0.75BI/100 100 bb deep.

eh, i cant really argue my point because ive done little to no research on it and it looks like you have. i just logically assumed naturally its going to be more swingy because your edges are thinner.

but as burns said, shortstacking scum not welcome

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01-18-2013 , 10:46 AM

#9398

A.Ertbjerg

Heisenbjerg

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 10,770

Quote:

Originally Posted by chiego

I mean, I only presented evidence that the variance is smaller in CAP compared to 100 bb deep. Not really sure how you can argue the opposite.

You are, of course, correct that winrates are much lower in CAP games.

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01-18-2013 , 10:52 AM

#9399

PlasticElephant

Coach NLHE

Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 2,322

Quote:

Originally Posted by GutshotDan92

This.

Platic:

I also agree with your AT analysis. At 5NL, you will find more than enough opponents who will station your river bet with second pair for reasons along the line of "Well, there is 2 kings on the board so I effectivly have TP and TP is the nutz".

However, lets say we are at 10NL where regs are not as bad - IE can find the fold button - would you say you are effectivly commiting yourself to a river barrel (once you bet that turn) on most cards targeting those 2nd pair hands, missed draws?

Yeah because I don't expect him to ever fold 2nd pair on the turn. AT is a pretty decent hand to put in our 3barrel range, so bet twice vs anyone semi competent is shwayze.