Winning hand mucked before it's shown - Beginning Poker Questions

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Winning hand mucked before it's shown

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07-22-2008 , 12:09 PM

stonefish

newbie

Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 15

Quick question regarding an incident that occurred in one of my recent home games:

Player A and player B are on the river. Player A bets, and player B calls. Player A declared that he had a straight without showing his hand, and player B mucked his cards. Player A then proceeded to muck his cards and take the money.

Does player A win simply because player B mucked first (there was about a second or two time difference in between the hands being mucked)? Or do we need to see evidence of the hand because they had both paid the same amount into the pot?

Thanks guys.

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07-22-2008 , 12:14 PM

EGarrett

old hand

Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,562

Quote:

Player A declared that he had a straight without showing his hand, and player B mucked his cards. Player A then proceeded to muck his cards and take the money.

Player A is a genius.

Seriously though, if no hands were shown, I'd split the pot and tell him that just declaring your hand isn't enough.

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07-22-2008 , 12:19 PM

stonefish

newbie

Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 15

Cheers for that.

Although I'm definitely wary of referring to my friend as a "genius"

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07-22-2008 , 12:26 PM

smurg

old hand

Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 1,448

In any casino, you have to show your hand to win the pot unless the other person folds. So in this case, he would have to show.

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07-22-2008 , 12:30 PM

stonefish

newbie

Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 15

Nice one

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07-22-2008 , 12:40 PM

EGarrett

old hand

Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,562

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Originally Posted by stonefish

Cheers for that.

Although I'm definitely wary of referring to my friend as a "genius"

Just think of how many times he may have pulled that trick off before you guys caught him.

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07-22-2008 , 12:43 PM

DoGGz

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Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 17,315

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Originally Posted by smurg

In any casino, you have to show your hand to win the pot unless the other person folds. So in this case, he would have to show.

This is wrong. There's only one player left with cards so he wins by default. Mucking and folding are the same thing in this case.

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07-22-2008 , 02:01 PM

Shick

veteran

Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 2,314

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoGGz

This is wrong. There's only one player left with cards so he wins by default. Mucking and folding are the same thing in this case.

+1

If you call a bet, make him show you that he beat you (and, if you're unsure, tabling your own cards isn't a bad idea either). If he says he has a straight and you muck, you've folded and the declaired straight wins even if he only had Aces up.

By the way, declaring a hand without showing is borderline angle-shooting--and defitinetly angle-shooting if he's lying about his hand to induce a fold. Make him show. He was called, afterall. Don't muck before you see the goods.

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07-22-2008 , 02:23 PM

DWarrior

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Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 7,787

Your friend may have been trying to pull a trick Negreanu pulled a while ago, but I'm not sure if he got it right.

Technically, to win the pot, you must show your cards unless you declare you're playing the board. The board came a straight, and at showdown Negreanu said he had a straight. His opponent mucked and Negreanu won the pot.

But you're not allowed to lie on the river, so unless your friend really had a straight, he'd probably lose the hand in the casino.

Also, he's a huge douche for doing that in a home game.

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07-22-2008 , 02:28 PM

#10

Shick

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Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 2,314

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Originally Posted by DWarrior

But you're not allowed to lie on the river, so unless your friend really had a straight, he'd probably lose the hand in the casino.

While I agree with you, if player B mucks his hand, player A wins even if he was lying. (Unless he actually shows, but he's not gonna do that).

Really easy fix to this "problem" though. Don't muck before you see 'em.

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07-22-2008 , 02:33 PM

#11

DWarrior

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Originally Posted by Shick

I'm going to ask in B&M because I really doubt you're allowed to lie about your hand.

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07-22-2008 , 02:43 PM

#12

Shick

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Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 2,314

Quote:

Originally Posted by DWarrior

I'm going to ask in B&M because I really doubt you're allowed to lie about your hand.

You're not. But when everyone folds, it doesn't matter what your hand is. You can win with 5 high. The fact that he stated a hand is irrelevant.

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07-22-2008 , 02:59 PM

#13

DWarrior

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http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...31&postcount=5

or my post if you want to discuss it with others:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...d.php?t=256404

I know about the "last hand standing wins" rule, but I would be surprised if it applied here every time.

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07-22-2008 , 03:05 PM

#14

Vitamin11

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Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 3,009

yes, if you can make him muck his hand, the pot is yours. you must show your hand though

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07-22-2008 , 03:18 PM

#15

Shick

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Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 2,314

Quote:

Originally Posted by DWarrior

You're probably right. This situation has never come up in any game I've been in in a casino. The dealer should probably make the called hand show. But the caller should not be mucking his hand before he sees the cards, ever.

In a home game, I'd make 'em show and tell player B not to muck early. Then you've eliminated this type of cheating entirely.

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07-22-2008 , 03:26 PM

#16

Cry Me A River

Orange is the new Green

Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 23,783

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shick

You're not. But when everyone folds, it doesn't matter what your hand is. You can win with 5 high. The fact that he stated a hand is irrelevant.

No, if you deliberately miscall your hand you forfeit the pot.

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07-22-2008 , 03:29 PM

#17

Shick

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Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 2,314

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cry Me A River

No, if you deliberately miscall your hand you forfeit the pot.

Yeah, but the question is, is the dealer gonna make you show your hand to find out if you miscalled?

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07-22-2008 , 03:32 PM

#18

DWarrior

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Shick

Yeah, but the question is, is the dealer gonna make you show your hand to find out if you miscalled?

from my (limited) b&m experience, dealer will ask you to show and if you refuse will call floor.

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07-22-2008 , 03:34 PM

#19

tiltymcfish0

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Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 2,210

if cards already in the muck I think liar gets the money unless everyone at the table (and possibly a manager) agrees that they can be pulled out of the muck and showed down

I saw a situation once, not the same but similar - A bets, B calls, A shows two pair, B looks at his cards and mucks. Some random walking by mentions that B actually mucked the winner (higher two pair) - whole table convinced A and the dealer that they should pull the cards out of the muck and showdown (A still had a right to refuse this obv but was pressured by rest of the table to allow it and caved). Ship to B in the end.

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07-22-2008 , 03:36 PM

#20

tiltymcfish0

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Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 2,210

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cry Me A River

No, if you deliberately miscall your hand you forfeit the pot.

wow I had no idea... so is this something they would ever just warn him on or is it automatic that if dealer makes him show and he had lied, the other guy wins regardless of his hand?

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07-22-2008 , 04:09 PM

#21

DoGGz

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Quote:

Originally Posted by tiltymcfish0

wow I had no idea... so is this something they would ever just warn him on or is it automatic that if dealer makes him show and he had lied, the other guy wins regardless of his hand?

I wouldn't make him show the hand, but if he was stupid to show it, and it was clear he was miscalling it then I'd drop the hammer on him. This is especially at a home game where it should be much more friendly play.

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