Great post OP, thx

Actually my ID comes from something that is about 15 years old and has nothing to do with any movie. On another note, I guess you don't know anything if you don't post alot on this site huh? Pretty stupid assumption don't you think?

No, I have seen you argue why it is stupid to limp in with a good to great hand and I don't disagree. I am talking about limping in on some of those times that you say I should fold. Paying 20BB per 100 hands instead of folding those 20 hands means you only need to catch 1 or 2 and play it right thereafter to make that work with a positive EV. If you are multi-tabling to the point where you would rather fold and concentrate more on other tables that is a different issue, but you have not made any valid argument that says I am wrong to limp in on some of those hands you say I should fold and insta-fold if I don't catch the flop or play it well if I do. The risk-reward of limping in when in decent position with a sub-par hand when you can outplay your opponents is definitely positive (or atleast it has been for me). Maybe that is a crappy strategy at higher tables where most hands someone will raise but it works at 2NL for sure. You not being open to this doesn't make it wrong either. I'll give you an example from a hand I played last night. I had 66 and limped in. BB checked. Flop came and I hit my trips. BB bet, I raised, he 3bet and I went all in and ended up doubling up. He had KK and thought his overpair was good. So I did well to limp in with a crappy pp. The dude with the kings was an idiot to limp in with them. I would have folded to a 8BB raise. So what do you say I should have done with the 6's? Raise? Then the great majority of calls are a coin flip or an overpair, so I take down a few BB or I go to the flop even or well behind. How is that better than paying the minimum and taking a big pot once in awhile?

You both played that hand poorly.

You're saying you only need to hit once for every 20 times you limp, but when you hit are you ever going to get paid off? Probably not because most likely everyone else is limping and didn't hit hard either. You can't count on some moron limping behind with KK every time you play a middling pocket pair.

Well, if everyone is limping in you only need to take down the blinds plus a small bet twice to get back to even. I don't need to have a moron limping with KK to make up 40BB over 20 hands. Again, you aren't making an argument that the EV is negative you are just making blanket statements that are irrelevant. How SHOULD I have played it then? I already asked...raise? Then who calls? The KK probably reraises if I raise and forces me off my hand. If he calls I get to the same point, doubling up. Let's say he has a more common hand like AJ. If I raise to 4BB he and maybe one other hand raises. Then when I hit my trip 6's I can slow play it or take it down. Let's say I instead limp against the AJ. Now if I slow play it and check on the flop he is alot more likely to bet than he was if I raised preflop. It is a totally different game then your preflop raise and cbet normal strategy. I have a pretty crappy hand and I want everyone to think I have a pretty crappy hand so that when the flop turns it into a big hand I can get the most out of it. I guess you guys are just too robotic with your raise-cbet or fold strategy to even consider playing other hands differently.

One more thing, that limp-in paid for 100 more BB limp-ins so something stupid like that happening 1% of the time on top of 2/20 small pots is definitely EV+

Can you explain this in more detail?

If your opponents see you cbetting frequently, they will fold a majority of the time when they miss.
However, when you hit and C-bet, they will play back at you due to your C-bet frequency and hopefully give your monster hands the action you're looking for.

I would be interested to see a winning middle stakes/high stakes layer take a 50k hand shot at uNL, and see if they can still beat it.

I believe the OP did this last year. Had a prop bet out there to make $10k in a month at $25 NL full ring. Not sure if this thread prompted the prop or not.

Anyways, I think he was up like $3k before the prop bet was cancelled/paid out or whatever. I cannot imagine making $3k at $25 NL in a month.

If you need empirical evidence before you'll believe that a solid MSNL/HSNL player can beat uNL then it's obvious you don't understand poker.

I have the perfect example to add.

A friend of my who started poker because of me (is that a good thing or a bad thing) and regularly loses but only plays the micro stakes. He always calls has no aggression at all and so is a very weak player.

A couple of months ago we where playing poker together (even without a hud ). I asked him for a little paper and tape, and with it i blinded his call button . He was like WTF, and i said you may only click the blind spot when you have the absolute nuts and someone bets into you. He suddenly made the money 5 out of 10 times (with some luck). 2 times he was betting into a set with top pair vs a big stack and 3 times he ended up with 3 left on witch i removed the paper as calling with marginal hands 3 handed isn't a bad thing imo.

But now i have to learn him to pot control....... I'm almost blinding his raise button... he loves it .

Gz

Where would it be that we find this fantasy world where they always fold when you miss, but always call when you hit ?

I have the perfect example to add.

A friend of my who started poker because of me (is that a good thing or a bad thing) and regularly loses but only plays the micro stakes. He always calls has no aggression at all and so is a very weak player.

A couple of months ago we where playing poker together (even without a hud ). I asked him for a little paper and tape, and with it i blinded his call button . He was like WTF, and i said you may only click the blind spot when you have the absolute nuts and someone bets into you. He suddenly made the money 5 out of 10 times (with some luck). 2 times he was betting into a set with top pair vs a big stack and 3 times he ended up with 3 left on witch i removed the paper as calling with marginal hands 3 handed isn't a bad thing imo.

But now i have to learn him to pot control....... I'm almost blinding his raise button... he loves it .

Gz

THIS adds a little clarity

WHAT DOES

33/14
12/3
25/11


???????????????????????
mean????

You should have waited till the season was over to even think about even making this comment.


Great thread WCRider

Tag this oldie but goodie.

Are you seriously saying any calling preflop is bad? What about you have say a small pp in the BB in a 6 max CG. Everyone is 100bb deep and UTG raises and between 1 and everyone else calls, isnt just calling the best play? Shouldnt we only raise here with big hands and very occassionally total garbage that has no value. Isnt the value in a small pp or SC in trying to hit a big hand in a multi way pot and not raising and potentially getting reraised off our hand, losing more money and never giving ourselves a chance to win a big pot.

My impression was that open limping is always terrible, but limping behind is OK and calling small raises in position with drawing hands wasnt awful.

Did you not notice the two exceptions OP made? calling with pocket pairs and SC is fine, as OP also descripes.

But please don't limp behind, raise it up and win yourself some money.

Go here and read

I agree with the op 100%.
I think my biggest leak so far - and it's very tempting to do - is to limp in EP/MP with sc and small to mid PPs.

Seriously.
NO, SERIOUSLY
FOLD OR RAISE PRE.

And only call a raise w/ sc or PPs IF YOU HAVE IMPLIED ODDS.
ONLY do it if the table is deep enough (~130BB+). If everyone is around 80 or 90BB, DON'T DO IT!!!
Also, these players have to be aggressive themselves for it to be worth calling, because if they are passive, you might not get any money out of them

If you are dealt pocket kings should you reraise or call? what about jacks, queens and tens? If I am deal an ove pair should I bet the pot or call a pot raise and watch for straights/flushes? what about two pair? Do you bet a pot size bet or half the pot if it's top 2 pair or should you just check and call if you get a weak raise from lp? How do you play top pair after the flop?

Ok so given as WCG Rider was the reason I moved to FR and that worked out I decided to try out not calling as much (still lack the fortitude to rarely call)

Last night I started 3 betting hands I normally would call in Late position, and I got decent results. I 3 bet AQo, KJs, QTs, and some other marginal holdings when in position otherwise I folded. Most of the time i got folds, I got a couple calls but they just folded to a cbet of half pot, and I got one 4 bet which i simply folded to.

Couldnt help but call against nittier players still though as I dont like folding hands like AQs and KQs or TT IP and I dont like 3betting nitty players with those hands. I certainly like the new dynamic though

depends on the opponent, your position, and your reads