ksight?....not really...just anybody generally that may or may not do very well on TLB's and stuff

my point is we don't care what an employee actually costs a company. all we care about is what we actually get paid. like i said before i don't care that the company has to pay for my delivery truck cause I don't get to keep that. i wasn't trying to get an exact equivalent just giving an example.

and yeah health insurance for a 24 year old is dirt cheap. (chamber of commerce BALLIN)

I played c. 108k hands at NL2 and won at just under 12ptBB/100 (after starting off -8ptBB/100 for first 20k hands because I sucked and had never read or even thought about the game. I was playing like 70/5/1 during that time lol).

Now I play NL5 and in 15k hands I'm winning at just over 7ptBB/100, which is ok but not good enough. I'd like to be at 10ptBB/100 after 150k or so hands before moving up to NL10, and then the same to NL25

10ptbb/100 could be pushing it a bit. why do u want to play 150k hands anyway?? would u not rather just move up as quickly as possible? tbh cash games dont start getting any more difficult until NL25 really, and then its not like they become unbeatable, u just have to start table selecting a little bit.
fwiw 7ptbb/100 is massive

Seriously?

I thought that was just an average winrate at uNL for someone who actually bothered to study the game and practice.

Guess I've got lucky so far at NL5.

Well I want to make sure I'm well and truly rolled for each level so I'm not moving up until I have at least 40 buy ins at each level. What was more important to me was showing that I can consistently beat the game at a certain level.

I want to move up as quickly as possible, but I have to be incredibly strict with my bankroll. A lot of people have said that NL50 is actually when it starts getting a bit tougher, and I shouldn't be worried about moving up (if I'm rolled for it) until I get to there.

Which I guess is what will happen.

You SHOULD care what the employee costs the company, because anyone going the self-employment route (which includes all professional poker players who cannot at least get insurance through a spouse), will be footing many of those bills themselves.

Just a short list of some of the things you'll have to pay yourself:

• Social Security and Medicare taxes (FICA) - Anyone with a paycheck has some money taken out for this. Once you go SE, double that.
• Unpaid vacation - It sure was nice to get two weeks (or more) of paid vacation when you had a normal job, wasn't it? Well now your vacations are unpaid.
• Insurance - Anywhere from $100 to $1000 per month (maybe outside that range, but that should cover most people)
• Extra to your retirement fund to cover what your employer formerly matched
• Electricity for your computer that now runs an extra 8 hours/day, plus the monitors
• Accounting fees - If you're going pro at poker, you WILL need an accountant to help you with your taxes if nothing else
• Other office supplies - Someone said something about taking this stuff home from your employer. Maybe you had to buy some of these items before, but being self-employed, you'll be doing that a lot more

And that's a SHORT list of the extra expenses you can expect. While $100/hr might be a bit higher than necessary, it's not THAT far off. And if nothing else, you'll want that higher range to help build a significant bankroll to cover the inevitable down swing that hits most (all?) serious pros.

Of course for UK players it's a lot better as you pay zero tax on poker earnings but 30-50% tax in a job, don't need medical insurance or any professional fees. Nor do I see why I would need any office supplies...you will need to put money aside for vacations and retirement of course, but very few employers put in more than 2% gross wage into retirement funds anyway and you can adjust for holidays easily enough (just divide the weeks holidays by 52 for a % adjustment).

I would expect that most employees pay a lot more to commute and to buy food to eat when out at work than they will end up paying in extra electricity costs if they stayed at home.

This is the beauty of living in England. Gambling winnings are tax free taking points 1 and 3 out of the equation, and there is the wonderful NHS so no need for insurance.

Of course, living anywhere other than the U.S. may change some or all of my points.

I do stand by the office supplies point (don't forget paying for whatever extra software you may need to "run your business"), but conceed that these costs may end up being minimal.

lol at 40 buyins. thats super nitty. and yea 7ptbb/100 is good. maybe it can be beaten by a lot at NL5 but i wouldnt worry about that if u want to move up the levels. move up to NL10 and make 4ptbb/100 and you're already making more than u would at NL5...

Nitty is my middle name. No really it is. It was a nightmare at school.

What do you recommend as a buy in requirement? 20? 25? move down when you get below 15?

20. and yea if u drop 5 buyins move down till u have 20 again.

there is like so little difference in skill level that it would only be sick variance that took on a 5 buy in downswing if you are any good. and, since your edge should be massive at those levels i dont think there will be much variance at all

My BR is at enough to play NL10 at those parameters.

I'm not going to be playing online for another 2 weeks but I'm going to give it a shot and see what happens. If I can win at 4ptbb/100 and I'm 6 tabling or something then that'll be a mighty $5 or $6/hour

Gramuel, I am not disagreeing with jw but if your comfort level is 40 buy-ins then stick with that. The last thing you want to do is play scared because you are uncomfortable.

There is nothing wrong with being nitty and proving beyond doubt that you are ready to move up a level.

I agree, but I think it was because I was scared of a massive downswong causing me to lose my entire BR.

I'm already well over 20 BI's for NL10 and I'm probably going to stick to 30 BIs rather than 40 going forward. I'll have a think. Maybe if/when I move up to NL50 or NL100 I'll move up to 40BIs but at the moment when I'm crushing the games because only about 20% of the players there actually know anything, it's a bit too nitty.

I'll wait and see.

well yea obv. but gramuel was talking about potentially going pro. thats not really gonna happen any time soon if he's wasting time playing like 150k hands at each level starting with 5NL

Yeah, all I'm saying is stick with what works for you and not what works for others. Some players need a very nitty BR and for others having 40 buy-ins may make them too loose. Just find your own level.

What really annoyed me about the replies to the that thread is many posters assumed that the OP was saying he was 'ready to go pro' when all he was doing was asking for advice and that he wanted to learn to be in a position to make money at a later date. It just sounded like people wanted to flame the guy and give the default 'don't go pro you moron' line without actually listening to what the poster was saying.

If you really want to do something and you are in the position to do it without real risk then do it if its important to you. Just make sure you understand the reality of the situation.

If you understand you know what you're getting yourself into and you want to do it, then do it. I felt that thread was from a guy who had thought about it, decided to do it and thought that the best way to get an idea of where to start learning by asking the biggest poker community on the internet. What a 'terrible' idea that was and obviously he deserved to get flamed for it and his thread locked...

Potentially going pro - lol - is years in the future, I have to actually start getting good at the game first of all.

It's not really even on my mind, just think it might be nice to be my own boss one day, because I ****ing hate the corporate world I work in.

I have tremendous respect for all you Pros and semi-pros out there, but I know I am the way I play = weak/tight. So I'll just be happy for poker to remain a cash positive hobby.

Going pro doesn't have to be the default ambition.

Learning to triple barrel bluff (in the right spots) would be enough for me,

$100/hour is just about right for someone who expects to earn $75/hour, i.e. $150K/year, as a working stiff.

if you have to ask, "how do i go pro?", then you don't have what it takes.

agreed.

your missing the point. I was pointing out that we don't care what the cost to the would be we care about what we need to pay.

I have been an independent contractor and my costs were so much higher than they are now. When playing poker I'm really not going to pay for office space or all the various business related insurances and equipment.

I don't know how this got into like all the things you need to pay for. I'm just saying the particular cost to a company shouldn't concern you as much as what YOU will have to pay when you are a pro.

I think we (mostly) agree, it's just a matter of how we're stating the situation. Someone self employed will have expenses beyond the straight dollar amount they get from working for someone else, but those expenses will not be as much as the former employer pays in total for the employee. For everything like payroll taxes and insurance that the new pro will have to start covering for themself, there are costs like office space and unused benefits like the piddly life insurance some companies provide that will become unnecessary.

The short story is that, if one makes $50/hr in their normal job, then something closer to $60 or $70/hr might be roughly equivalent as someone self-employed. And for me personally, I would prefer an extra $30/hr on top to be able to build up my roll sufficiently to cover any prolonged downswings I might encounter.

Beyond all the givens (being a solid player with a solid winrate over a significant period of experience at several levels, being mentally sound enough to stay focused and play one's A-game even during the downswings, understanding proper bankroll management and having living expenses for months or more taken care of, etc...),

why the f@#k would anyone want to turn pro if they didn't 100%, absolutely love the game and being around it constantly? I mean, if we're just talking making a decent living playing poker, well, if you're rolled for it and are a solid player, try it out and see if you can carry it off long term. But after a year of doing that, sitting on your ass at home and getting fat, if you don't have a passion for cards, you're probably going to figure you're better off putting your natural talents to use in some other more gratifying way.

But, if you really want to be a poker pro - I mean a card-playing junkie who can barely tear himself away from the game long enough to bang his girlfriend (whom he's not likely to hold onto for long) or some random girl he met in a bar the week before, or squeeze in a round of golf on a hazy, hungover Sunday morning - why not move to Vegas and just throw yourself into it 100%? Play live, play online, take poker any way you can get it, to the point that the only people who understand you are poker degenerates just like yourself. If you can do that, pull in the income necessary to maintain whatever lifestyle you choose away from the tables (probably won't have much time away from the tables, though), and love your your life, and you choose to do this year after year after year, then you're a true poker pro, IMO.

Anybody else, keep poker as a profitable hobby (maybe even take a year or two off from work and let your hobby take care of the bills), but for f*#k's sake, drop the whole "I'm a poker pro" bit.