I consider myself a good player, I've cashed at the casino 7 out of the last 9 times. When i was on UB/AP i deposited only 3x after the 3rd time i never deposited again which was 2.5 years. Now i'm on cake, i deposited only one time 100.00 my roll is at 133.00 it is going up and down, up and down, here is the problem i'm playing 1.00 turbos or Don's I play my normal hand range which is usually premium hands i raise i get called by 4 callers and they usually are beating me with 2 pair. My raises are usually 3-4x depending on the blind level so i get on a streak i win like 4-5 games in a row then i lose 4-5 in a row do to the suckouts that i am receiving so the question is what limits should i play at knowing i'm a better player then most at the 1.00 level i want to play at a level where there's not to many donk calls and suckouts?

If I understand this correctly, you want to move up to where they respect your raises?

In a word: no.

Are you saying that because it's cake or your saying it's on everysite?

He's saying that because there's no reason you should expect to win more against better opponents.

It is never a good idea. Ever. Regardless of site.

If they do not respect your raises you are doing something fundamentally wrong:
1) not sizing your bets correctly
2) sizing bets correctly but not realising it is good in the long run for vils to call with their donk hands
3) You overplay your overpairs when obviously behind
4) Other random reasons

Any of these are problems that need addressing before you play against tougher opponents.

Ok then will there be less donk calls or the same amount at higher levels?

You're not grasping the concept. Playing against better opponents means you will win less. One of the tenets of poker is that when your opponents make mistakes while you play correctly, you profit. At lower stakes, opponents make more mistakes. It follows that your potential for profit (as a function of ROI) is higher.

If you're complaining that your opponents are making too many mistakes for you to beat them, you're not making the right adjustments. Period.

Why on earth would you want to do that?

You want to be donk-called.

When people are sucking out on you, it's because you got money in ahead. This is a good thing. By definition of "sucking out", most of the time, villain's card doesn't come and you win. You just need to be able to do damage control when bad cards (i.e. ones that villain is likely to have been looking for) come.

Ok thanks for all the help and suggestions.

Should add, to be fair to OP, that I'd guess a lot of us went through this thing of 'I'd do better if I wasn't playing such bad opponents' when we started. I know I did.

But yeah, it is just a phase. It needs to be, anyway.

Most likely less donk calls, yeah.
Which means you won't be able to double up as easily as you once were.
Tighter players, which mean less action, which mean tough shortstacked fights on the bubble most of the time, and not just getting there with 3x average stacks due to fish calling your shoves with garbage hands.


I don't know who's the first one who came up with this idea that moving up would be easier...
If you can't figure out how to beat ******s, you won't figure out how to beat good players.

Very very true! Also did some crazy things like trying to martingale up the stakes, only play AA pre-flop and jam all-in and hope for a call (disturbingly this did happen on occasion) and other nonsense.

Definitely needs to be a phase, otherwise OPs time in poker will be short lived.

"YOU HAVE IT IN YOUR POWER TO TURN A BAD-BEAT AROUND SIMPLY BY REALIZING THIS SIMPLE TRUTH: THE MORE BAD BEATS YOU ENCOUNTER, THE LUCKIER YOU ARE. IT'S A SIGN THAT YOU ARE PLAYING AGAINST OPPONENTS WHO CONTINUALLY TAKE THE WORST OF IT, AND IF YOU CAN'T BEAT SOMEONE WHO ALWAYS TAKES THE WORST OF IT, YOU CAN'T BEAT ANYONE."
~LOU KRIEGER

I t seems definitely to be a phase i play real good for 4-5 games then bam it seems the donks just flat win out on me its amazing that i have been able to keep my roll above my initial deposit from 4 months ago i never went through this up and downswing at all on UB/AP.

Nope i been playing for 4 years now, i have been doing really well at the casino in tourneys, I played on UB/AP for 3.5 years never had swings like this originally i deposited 3x on UB then i didn't deposit the rest of the time i was there i got 400.00 sitting there still. Now that i'm on cake I only deposited 1 time and i been managing to keep my roll on the plus side trying to double it up to move up a level. But yea i agree with you i have to be more patient on cake it seems!!

It's called variance. It happens to everyone, even the best players in the world.

Edit: Look up NoahSD's excellent article: "Life as an STT Pro by the Numbers (It’s a Lot Better Than You Probably Think)". It is probably the best write up ever on the variance associated with SnGs (he also has articles on variance in MTTs, NLHE cash and HU SnGs - all should be mandatory reading).

The more donk calls there are, the easier it is for a good player to win.

This is going to happen and is natural. You'll hit a string of suckouts and coolers. If you're getting it in well just realise that will pay off in the long run. If you're incapable of making laydowns postflop with hands like AA/KK/TPTK etc. when you're obviously beat by villains action, that's a whole different issue that needs to be addressed.

I just finished a session 20 mins ago where I took a shot at moving up stakes in PLO. I lost 5 buyins in 144 hands, so pretty much 10 buyins at my normal stakes. I actually played pretty well and got sucked out on multiple times and coolered once. To be honest the villains were pretty awful and I should have had the best of it, so believe me I know how you feel. However take note, I was moving up and ran into the same crap. rather than put me off, it's given me added incentive to take another shot (after some more grinding) as a table of a**clowns prepared to get it in super light is exactly what i want.

I just want to say ty for all the encouragement i think all ur advice helped as the last two days i made 19.00 profit i played real tight waited for hands played them to the best of my ability and came out on top!!

OP, save this thread in your favorites and assuming you are still around in two years, come back and read it again.

All the advice you have been given is solid.

Some people saying you'd do worse in higher stakes and there is no other alternative aren't always right, it depends. I find it hard to play on these lower stakes because the variance is HUGE as you can't find reasoning behind their actions. I know I'll get bashed for this but w/e

These are weaknesses in your game. You won't make more money vs better opponents.

I might add that variance goes both ways which only further gives evidence that being "results oriented" isn't logical at all. Sometimes winning money is variance, just on the positive side. If you're dealt quads, there's nothing you can do to lose provided they don't catch runner-runner for a straight flush.

it takes no skill to win at the showdown with quads. You can entice your opponent to bet more, or so you hope, but ultimately you will win regardless.

Knowing that variance always happens means you've got to maximize your winnings and minimize your losses because you assume you will get beaten with set over set, or you will have your rockets cracked, or you will catch your king-high flush when the villain will have ace high flush.

That stuff will happen and you can't stop it. But, you can practice self control and discipline so that when you do lose those pots, you lose the smallest amount. The flip side is, you hope your opponents do not practice this discipline and always assume their weak flush is the strongest on the board and call ANY bet. Once you know they're capable of that, then you're more likely to be paid off, and paid off quite well.

[QUOTE=gizeh68;28695611]I might add that variance goes both ways which only further gives evidence that being "results oriented" isn't logical at all. Sometimes winning money is variance, just on the positive side. If you're dealt quads, there's nothing you can do to lose provided they don't catch runner-runner for a straight flush.

it takes no skill to win at the showdown with quads. You can entice your opponent to bet more, or so you hope, but ultimately you will win regardless.

Knowing that variance always happens means you've got to maximize your winnings and minimize your losses because you assume you will get beaten with set over set, or you will have your rockets cracked, or you will catch your king-high flush when the villain will have ace high flush.

That stuff will happen and you can't stop it. But, you can practice self control and discipline so that when you do lose those pots, you lose the smallest amount. The flip side is, you hope your opponents do not practice this discipline and always assume their weak flush is the strongest on the board and call ANY bet. Once you know they're capable of that, then you're more likely to be paid off, and paid off quite well.[/QU

Couldn't agree more, played again tonight played 8 games only lost 3.00 over all i defintely have listened to what you all said and losing 3.00 is nothing because it could of been a lot more tonight if i didnt listen!!