2nl
No reads at all

Hero LP vs EP raiser

Villain raises to .12

Hero re-raises to .37 with AA

Villain calls .25

FLOP : KK9

pot is lyk 0.75 or something

villain leads 0.78 or so on the flop

Hero folds AA

??

No. You don't say how deep you are, but I call and probably call a turn shove. This is a really weird line for trips, and if he's calling 3bets w KJo or whatever trying to flop 2 pair plus, you'll get his money back soon enough.

100bb deep

I folded

I couldnt understand what he would open/pot commit to

Usually they're very passive

Gd way to look at it tho, by me gettin my money back soon enough but yeah K9o is in they're range most of the time in LP but definetely K10+ from EP.

So is 88-QQ

are you saying they lead here with QQ-88?

these are really terrible, over agressive preflop, ultra passive postflop players

im really confused as to wether he leads hard with trips because Im fairly aggressive or wether he might even lead AQ, or 22+

i mean if im leading 88+ im usually leading 22+ against a wide range with a c-bet on this draw dry board and not overbet commtting the pot OOP on the flop.

here i think its a thin range and this has only happened once, thts y i folded

This doesn't look strange to me at all. A guy with any pocket pair is going to lead into you there, a guy who wants to bluff is going to lead into you there, and some folks will sometimes lead with a K here, figuring you'll pay off.

Many folks also realize that a paired board with no draws is a very good board to steal on, especially if you saw the flop heads up, and especially if you're first to act.

I would probably bet into you with almost any hand under these circumstances.

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Wait, the lack of any stack size info is obviously going to make this discussion somewhat difficult. Still, in most cases, a guy who loved his hand enough to play the way he did preflop is going to continue postflop.

ok so its a standard flop shove? because the villains moneys goin in on the turn 95%+ because we are 100bb deep and I beat most of his range?

Im still not sure these people are smart enough to pot shove overbet commit the flop OOP with a wide range against a big IP 3-bet from me being a very TAG player.

Is it not pointless doing that with a hand lyk QQ?
I can just value lead 3/5 the pot and fold to a raise?

Call/shove flop, shove turn. This is 2NL, he could be doing this with 22+!

You say you have no reads yet you describe villain as aggressive pre, passive post, over how many hands is this?

there all the same

lol I expected to see a really weird hand when I opened this thread, but it was not.

Villain can be doing this with any pocket pair as well as the unlikely KQ/KJ but I would figure most people at 2NL are passive as hell and they slowplay the hell out of big hands so I would think that this guy wants to get more money in.

I think this is an easy call/shove flop or call a shove/shove on the turn. At 2NL they will be doing this with literally anything. If villain c/c flop then c/min-raise on the turn then I would be REALLY worried.

Also, one last piece of advice. Your 3bet-size seems kinda small. At 2NL people with a hand worth raising to 0.12 will call a 3bet of 0.37c as well as a 3bet of 0.50$. I would personally 3bet people to 4x their original raise if I were in your position, and that's not even the most they are willing to put... Some of them will call a 5x 3bet just because folding is never an option for them. If you are trying to milk them with your strong hands at 2NL then you are doing it wrong.

Im srry but i completely disagree with the last paragraph of ur post
If I inflate the pot im negating my positional advantage by commiting the flop and if I 3-bet aces here to 0.50, I have to 3-bet 99 to 0.50 against these players wide ranges.

Are you saying to monster 3bet and not commit the flop, but fold alot because there is no turn if I play like this. Also if they are doing this with KJ and flop top pair and I have an underpair to the board, I cant really tell wether they are doing the same thing with underpairs themselves, lyk the eg. above.

Still unhappy about my overall understanding of this hand/thought process

agree with bigger 3bet preflop looking to get it in preflop or on the flop. i dont know why you would be 3betting 99 so that doesnt make sense to me. you are ahead preflop and are fairly sure he will call a bigger bet, so tell me why you wouldnt want to get max value at a point in the hand when you are 100% ahead?

If I inflate the pot im negating my positional advantage by commiting the flop and if I 3-bet aces here to 0.50, I have to 3-bet 99 to 0.50 against these players wide ranges.

I 3bet 99 becuase im way ahead of their opening range

J10,Q10,K10,KJ,KQ,A10,AJ,AQ,AK,22-88

I want value preflop but dont want to commit postflop on bad boards, so if I 3bet big and shove I only get postflop value from a better hand apart from when my hand is an overpair. I lose all value vs small pairs when the board is between 7 and 10 and all value vs ace high too, the dont lyk calling shoves open ended and and AK high flush draw to a Q high board is favourite unless I have a set.

IOW there is a ton of post value im missing by

A.Not 3betting 99
B.Inflating the pot

You are forgetting something. People at 2NL won't be paying attention to your betsizing. So if you want to 3-bet them to 0.50$ in this spot when you have AA and then 3bet to 0.37 when you have AQ, that's fine. The only reason why you are looking to inflate the pot in this spot is because you already have a made-hand preflop so you are trying to find a way to get your money in as fast as possible.

Think of it this way. If you know that villain is calling 0.37$ as well as 0.50$ when you have AA, why not the latter? You are not trying to scare them off their hand, you are just trying to maximize the amount you can get these players to pay.

Also, betsizing does not need to be the same against every player. Sometimes I will 3bet to 6x their raise with QQ against a player that I know is a calling station so I might as well commit him on the flop, while some other times I will 3bet to 3.5x their raise with AK against a player that I know is decent and therefore that's probably the most he will pay.

You need to think of how much you can get them to pay at these levels, specially when you already have a strong hand. Even at 50NL, if someone raises to 3$ (6bb just like in your example), I will be 3betting that person to at least 11$ which is nearly 4x their raise, so why wouldn't you? You can't just think that because they can flop 2 pair or better you should bet smaller preflop. That will often cost you a LOT of money.

why isnt TT+ a part of their range? i still like 3betting more with aces. im looking to get as much in the pot as possible. you have a hand that will win more often than any other and i cannot be convinced that getting as much in right now isnt a good idea. if youre scared that they might outflop you then why even play the aces in the first place?

edit: also, its 2NL, they are not open raising all of these hands, they are limping a ton. i seriously doubt your average 2NL player is opening a hand like 22 and JT every time

?

?

You seem to be rather convinced that your logic is correct so I am not sure why you really made this thread when you are not really seeking advice.

Please don't think that I am upset for saying this. I just don't think that any of my advice in this thread is going to be useful simply because that's not really what you are looking for. In reality, you just want people to confirm that your logic is correct, which in my opinion, It was not.

Also, avoid using words such as 'stupid' when replying to someone who is giving you advice for future references

Have a good one.

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Anyone else out there any views on this discussion?

I like your idea of 3betting less so as to induce a shove, but you said you were up against a readless villain. if you saw him doing this sort of thing then i could see that possibility, but not from a random. also, if someone is already thinking about shoving KQ to a 3bet, hes probably fishy enough to shove over any size 3bet anyway.

true, they do call preflop alot tho

Yes this is very true. I steal often on a paired board and I see a lot of counter bluff. If he has a pocket pair or ace high he might think he's good. This is a very gay spot, i'd be willing to commit heads up.

Preflop: I like 3-betting such that Villain has to put 10% of effective stacks in, so as to deny him set mining odds but to entice a call nonetheless. So that about .35 is fine. I see Sam's point too, but we don't know if Villain is going to call off 1/6 of his stack with 22-99, so I would keep it to ~.35. As far as OP's comments about negating positional advantage, that's not an issue here. You are going to be ahead on the flop a lot with a hand that is not going to improve on the turn/river often. You want to be able to get the $ in and you are going to want to do so before you are outdrawn. You are not looking to keep the pot small in order to get away from your hand. With respect to 3-betting 99 preflop, I don't know why you would do that against an EP raiser without reads that he will raise 6xBB and call a 3-bet with worse. It's not enough for you to be ahead of his initial raising range. Flat the pfr and play position.

On the flop, anything but folding is fine. Players love to check/raise the nuts here - Villain has QQ-TT a lot, if not air. The SPR is way too low for you to be thinking about folding on what is not that bad a board for you.

2NL lol