I have gotten lately where when I have small-mid pocket pairs I always open with them. I was reading a post discussing their usefulness when people bet on poor board textures on the flop (rainbow, with disjointed low cards, paired boards, and/or a high card with two mid or low cards).

When you can count on a villian betting if checked to, on a board like A92rnbw, 294rnbw, 722rnbw, the post suggested (if you are heads up) when out of position check/call the flop and lead into the turn with your small-mid pp if you raised pre.

I have started doing this and have had a huge amount of folds when I lead into the turn. It works especially well against aggressive opponents that are trying to use scare cards and opponents that take noticeably longer to call the turn when they are weak. Against the opponents whom I notice weakness on the turn, I will fire a third bullet into the river and it has always worked up to this point.

My question is what are some scenarios to not use this? It seems damn hard to have pocket sevens and not follow this line when heads up and the villain bets at a Q62 rainbow when checked to.

Thanks for the input

Grunch

don't know what stakes u play, but observant/thinking players will pick up pretty quickly what your doing ( esp. hu ) on those type of boards and will start making adjustments/start putting u in tuft spots esp with u playing oop.

It really depends on how observant villains are and what level you think they are playing at.

Taken from the FAQs:

This is a potentially infinite progression:

Level 0: I have cards and a good feeling about this hand lol!
Level 1: What do I have?
Level 2: What does my opponent have?
Level 3: What does my opponent think I have?
Level 4: What does my opponent think that I think they have?
Level 5: What does my opponent think that I think they think I have?

Basically on a dry board people of people are folding too often then they are just playing level 1 because they don't have a hand often enough. If someone was to apply level 2 though and have some board texture understanding and are observant eventually they are going to realize your full of it and start putting you in tricky spots.

You are thinking at level 2 because you know your opponent can't have it often enough on dry boards.

The trick is with levels is to stay one above your opponents, anymore than that though and it all collapses like a house cards. You play level 3 and try and rep a flush on 4 flush board against a level 1 who has top 2 pair, your bluff ain't gonna work.

don't get why you c/c the flop to catch floats then lead turn to scare them away. surely c/c flop c/c turn and c/f river is better in just about every way.

Because if you have something like 88, your hand has little chance to improve, but is vulnerable to overcards and a tough decision on the river. (You just don't know if that 9+ on the river hit villain. Can you really check-call the river if it's a Broadway card?)
If you lead the turn, villain will often fold, so he doesn't have the chance to take a free card, where he could pair one of his overcards on the river.
Check-calling the flop, leading the turn is basically the same as check-raising the flop, although it's slightly cheaper, and has the the same effect. You're basically floating out of position, and you're taking the pot with a marginal hand to prevent villain from taking it off you with ATC.
Check-folding the river cannot possibly be good! Why give villain 2 streets of value and then fold the (likely) best hand?

c/c turn costs roughly the same as betting out, and you're giving villain a chance to barrel again.

most villains will not triple barrel unless a good card comes off (depends).

Anyway, I didn't say my line is good, just that I think it's slightly better than OP's line. Beats saying I don't like it because it's not what I do, like I would usually.

Thanks for providing your input anyway.

the nature of any line taken is generally board/villain dependent. This reverse float followed by single/double barrels is an interesting line to take.

you just have to ask yourself "would this flop most likely hit this villain's range"?

heres some examples, hero has 88 in both

example one: 19/16 villain raises from co and hero calls with 88 from BB.

flop: 279 rainbow, this type of flop most likely miss this type of player.

example 2: 60/40 lagtard raise from co and hero calls 88 from bb.

flop: 279 2 suits. this flop may hit this player.

silly example: flop is AKQ all spades. not really a tpye of board to reverse float.

as a general thought, i would ask the question, and also before pulling moves like this, i would ask how dangerous the board is right now on the flop.

Im not sure if playing small/medium PP's this way is great. For one i dont think they are strong enough to be letting opponents the oppurtunity to catch. You are being aggressive at the wrong times - playing passive on early streets and waiting for the turn and river to bet out. With small PP's that i've raised preflop with, depending on the villian and the board texture, i normally just cbet/give up.

yeah, small to mid PP's are very difficult to play OOP, IMO their major value is the ability to hit sets as the payoff is usually huge when you do hit and its so well concealed.

this line is passive, tho, c/c on the flop given the right board, and see whether villain was just having a stab and gives up on the flop. i would lead on the river on a none scare card if villain checks back the turn. small pairs 22-55 i would normally just look to cbet/give up.

I tend to check-fold on the flop if it brings 2 overcards to my pair, especially when there's a flush draw and I have no blocker.
e.g. I might check-call flop, donk turn with 77 on Q62r, but I'd check-fold 77 on QJ6tt. With two connected overcards, villain often has at least a gutshot and one overcard and possibly a flush draw too, if he didn't already make a pair that beats 77, so your equity is very low.
EDIT: Just put this through Equilab.
Flop Qs6sJc
Hero: 7h 7d
Villain: AQs-A9s,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,98s,AQo-ATo,KTo+,QTo+,JTo (all non-pair Broadways apart from AK, plus a few 98s+)
Hero's equity: 23.6%, villain's: 76.4%.

It often pointless making a c-bet on such a flop, and check-calling is just value-towning yourself.

I am going to bring the HUD in for some more input on when to implement my line.

My line is obviously going to work more against a villain that raises when someone checks more often and then he frequently folds to turn bets.

Floating would involve the villians with a high c-bet frequency combined with low turn bet frequency.

What hud stats would I use for the opposite: raises when checked to and folds to turn bets?

P.S.
What frequency of c-betting is considered high? Around seventy percent?

Thanks a bunch

At nanostakes, the bet-check-bet line is very common. Lots of players c-bet on a one-and-done basis. Double-barrelling with air is uncommon, so you'll find lots of players with a C-bet of 70+% and Turn c-bet% of 45% or less. (My own stats are a bit like that, but I'm taking steps to change it, as the bet-check-bet line is so fishy and exploitable).
There's a stat called "Bet unopened flop in position (Bet UO IP)" and another one for the turn, which basically indicates the propensity to float. There's also a "Fold to turn c-bet%" stat. If the latter is higher than 50%, you should be inclined to barrel the turn. You might also find the WTSD stat useful. Numbers higher than 30% tend to indicate calling stations, so you should reserve your barrelling for tighter players (WTSD of 20 or below).
I consider c-bet% of 75% to be fairly high, but the guys I particularly like to exploit are the ones with a c-bet% of 90%. Some players c-bet 100% of flops. You can check-raise with air against most of them, when the flop clearly doesn't hit their range.

Are you running different software than hold'em manager? On hold em manager their is not a stat called this. I have one called raises in position when limped to postflop (approximately). It did not seem to be picking this stat up during flops where someone was checked to in position and they raised.

I posted a question on the hold em manager board anyway.

Thanks

I just double-checked in HEM.
I think the one you need is listed under "VS Continuation bet" and it's called "Bet vs missed CB in position".
If you check the flop after being the pre-flop raiser, and villain bets, then it will be counted as a "Bet vs missed CB in position".
There's also "Bet vs missed flop CB in position" which is specific to when you check the flop after raising pre, and "Bet vs missed turn CB in position", which would apply when you fail to lead out on the turn, and villain bets. The stat called "Raise turn CB (ip)" applies when you lead out on the turn and get raised. (Which is when Baluga theorem comes in!)

P.S. The stat I mentioned first is included in the standard pop-up for C-bet%. That is to say, if you hover your mouse over a villain's C-bet stat, it will show you his "Bet in position VS MISSED C-BET" at the bottom of the pop-up. FWIW, my own stat is 59%, so if you checked to me on the flop, I'm going to be betting most of the time.