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04-24-2012 , 10:05 AM

Dazburt123

centurion

Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 148

This a simple cooler? I was thinking I could get called by AA, AK, extremely bad prices with a flush draw.

I just called in the SB so i dont bloat the pot OOP against a decent reg-ish player.

Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #12728262

Hero (SB): $10.35 (103.5 bb)
BB: $10 (100 bb)
UTG: $13.66 (136.6 bb)
MP: $13.27 (132.7 bb)
CO: $12.22 (122.2 bb)
BTN: $9.10 (91 bb)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q

UTG folds, MP raises to $0.30, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.25, BB folds

Flop: ($0.70) Q

(2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $0.40, Hero raises to $1.50, MP raises to $2.70, Hero raises to $10.05, MP calls $7.35

Turn: ($20.80) 4

(2 players)
River: ($20.80) 7

(2 players)

Get the Flash Player to use the Hold'em Manager Replayer.

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04-24-2012 , 10:09 AM

lowanizer

adept

Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 758

it's fine by me.

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04-24-2012 , 10:09 AM

chad0x001

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 8,558

a decent reg would not get all in there with AA or AK you are only getting in with hands that beat you.

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04-24-2012 , 10:18 AM

Dazburt123

centurion

Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 148

thats what I was considering but it wasnt like i was ever folding that hand on that board? I dont think anyone could fold on that board?

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04-24-2012 , 10:21 AM

Bartlett

veteran

Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 2,907

Flatting raises in the small blind with easily dominated hands is a leak. That's a 3 bet or fold hand to me.

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04-24-2012 , 10:26 AM

Dazburt123

centurion

Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 148

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bartlett

Flatting raises in the small blind with easily dominated hands is a leak. That's a 3 bet or fold hand to me.

I guess thats a fair point, I dont always do it, but against a reg who could 4bet and push me off a hand didnt seem a great idea either, it wasnt like i was going crazy on just a K high board tho...

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04-24-2012 , 10:39 AM

zumby

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 4,277

Not sure if folding or 3betting would be more ******ed. This is a very standard flat.

Flop is fine, though it's not a fistpump.

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04-24-2012 , 11:06 AM

lowanizer

adept

Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 758

ps. KQs is just a high suited connector for me, I'm not stacking off with top pair post flop.

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04-24-2012 , 11:10 AM

LosingShark

adept

Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 1,008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dazburt123

I guess thats a fair point, I dont always do it, but against a reg who could 4bet and push me off a hand didnt seem a great idea either, it wasnt like i was going crazy on just a K high board tho...

does he usually 4bet light? you would get so much more info 3betting here but postflop i dont see how you could fold? i think reg-villian (not knowing his stats) would have tptk QQ+ 77(unlikely because 7hits otr) or kq at worst kj i dont think his 3 betting post flop with a draw tho unless its tptk(with or without clubs) and i dont think it makes a difference because the line you took makes you look pretty weak so im not folding here.

(not sure if 4betting light is a term, oh well)

Last edited by LosingShark; 04-24-2012 at 11:25 AM. Reason: because im a newb

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04-24-2012 , 11:11 AM

#10

DalTXColtsFan

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 3,661

Quote:

Originally Posted by chad0x00

a decent reg would not get all in there with AA or AK you are only getting in with hands that beat you.

At 10NL? On Cake I see villains stacking off with top pair all the time, everywhere from 4NL to 20NL. Are regs more practical on PokerStars?

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04-24-2012 , 01:42 PM

#11

Dazburt123

centurion

Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 148

Quote:

Originally Posted by zumby

Not sure if folding or 3betting would be more ******ed. This is a very standard flat.

Flop is fine, though it's not a fistpump.

I tend to agree given the info I had

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04-24-2012 , 01:45 PM

#12

Dazburt123

centurion

Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 148

Quote:

Originally Posted by LosingShark

he might not 4 bet light, but yet again, he might and with decent suited connectors at the top of my range, I thought a 3bet OOP would be a bit silly.

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04-24-2012 , 01:54 PM

#13

Bartlett

veteran

Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 2,907

What do you do OOP if you don't flop 2 pair?

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04-24-2012 , 01:59 PM

#14

Dazburt123

centurion

Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 148

well lets say its a Kxx board or Qxx ide check raise, if i get any full blown action then ide fold ide imagine

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04-24-2012 , 02:24 PM

#15

zumby

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 4,277

Don't do that.

If we flop top pair call 2 streets and try and play a small-medium sized pot. If we flop a draw we'll usually x/r.

KQs will flop top pair+, a draw or pair+draw around 41% of the time. That's a lot of flops we're continuing on.

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04-24-2012 , 03:01 PM

#16

Bartlett

veteran

Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 2,907

And what percentage of the time we flop a pair is that pair dominated?

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04-24-2012 , 03:03 PM

#17

Combat Waitress

old hand

Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 1,789

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bartlett

And what percentage of the time we flop a pair is that pair dominated?

do u think thats more likely to happen in a single raised pot or 3bet pot?

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04-24-2012 , 03:14 PM

#18

Bartlett

veteran

Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 2,907

OP gave us no reads or stats, so we're flying blind as far as constructing a hand range. If villain is tight we wind up getting dominated a lot with a hand like KQ. I guess if you flop top pair and no draw and can lay it down if there's a lot of heat, flatting is ok. Personally, I sometimes have trouble letting go of TP2K.

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04-24-2012 , 03:40 PM

#19

chad0x001

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 8,558

Quote:

Originally Posted by chad0x00
a decent reg would not get all in there with AA or AK you are only getting in with hands that beat you.
At 10NL? On Cake I see villains stacking off with top pair all the time, everywhere from 4NL to 20NL. Are regs more practical on PokerStars?

I said *decent* reg. I was quoting you. Ive seen lots of bad regs play worse.

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04-24-2012 , 03:54 PM

#20

Krumb Snatcha

veteran

Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 3,051

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bartlett

What do you do OOP if you don't flop 2 pair?

You don't need to flop 2 pair to continue. Depending on the opponent you can c/r some flops, float some flops etc

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bartlett

And what percentage of the time we flop a pair is that pair dominated?

Not very often, if you both hold Kx pre-flop the odds of flopping a king are reduced obv. Also, you are forgetting the times you have him dominated.

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04-24-2012 , 04:24 PM

#21

Bartlett

veteran

Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 2,907

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krumb Snatcha

You don't need to flop 2 pair to continue. Depending on the opponent you can c/r some flops, float some flops etc

You missed the point of my question. It's easy enough to say, "this is a good way to play this hand", when in retrospect we already know we flopped top 2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krumb Snatcha

Not very often, if you both hold Kx pre-flop the odds of flopping a king are reduced obv. Also, you are forgetting the times you have him dominated.

Unless I have reads that say otherwise, I don't expect EP villains to raise with many hands that KQ dominates.

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04-24-2012 , 04:37 PM

#22

zumby

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 4,277

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bartlett

Unless I have reads that say otherwise, I don't expect EP villains to raise with many hands that KQ dominates.

Taking a few 6max hand charts for MP from Equilab:

Pokerevolution: KJo, KJs, KTs, K9s, QJo, QJs, QTs, Q9s
Pokerstrategy: KJo, KJs
Cardrunners: KJo, KJs, KTs, K9s, K8s, K7s, QJo, QJs, QTs, Q9s
DeucesCracked: KJo, KJs, KTs, K9s, K8s, K7s, QJo, QJs, QTs, Q9s
StoxPoker: KJo, KJs, KTs, K9s, K8s, K7s, QJo, QJs, QTs, Q9s

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04-24-2012 , 07:39 PM

#23

Krumb Snatcha

veteran

Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 3,051

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bartlett

You missed the point of my question. It's easy enough to say, "this is a good way to play this hand", when in retrospect we already know we flopped top 2.

I am really not sure what your point is, but nobody is saying that since we flopped 2 pair calling is better than 3-betting.

Also, most of the problems you have w/ flatting a raise you will also face when you 3-bet. Facing a dominated range and not knowing what to do when you don't flop 2 pair etc

Unless I have reads that say otherwise, I don't expect EP villains to raise with many hands that KQ dominates.

It is a MP open, and what Zumby posted. I am not saying you dominate his range or anything like that, but when talking about domination you have to look at it from both sides.

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04-24-2012 , 08:12 PM

#24

Dazburt123

centurion

Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 148

i guess check raising wouldnt be great if ive only flopped top pair, but certainly wanting to keep the pot small would be a main priority.

it was from MP, i could have a huge part of his range dominated, 3betting will only keep in the top half and put me in huge trouble.

when i say decent reg ide assume people would know that villian is playing something like 22/20 or something similar, 'cardrunners style' i like to call it, his cutoff opening range can be very wide indeed, i could post some stats if you wish but in all honesty i dont think it changes too much.

Last edited by Dazburt123; 04-24-2012 at 08:17 PM.

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04-24-2012 , 08:15 PM

#25

Dazburt123

centurion

Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 148

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bartlett

Unless I have reads that say otherwise, I don't expect EP villains to raise with many hands that KQ dominates.

you're basically saying that a reg will only open AK, KK and AA from the MP?

i dominate a ton of hands in his range...as i said i could give you some stats on a player but using the term 'reg' should really be enough in this instance

maybe your stance of 3betting or folding is a small leak...to me that just spells trouble

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