shoving when you think your behind? - Beginning Poker Questions

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shoving when you think your behind?

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09-10-2018 , 09:49 PM

pokerhsmtt

journeyman

Join Date: Jul 2018 Posts: 236

if im 10BB deep in a mtt and I believe I am behind with KQ. I believe someone has a Ace or a pair and they are calling my 10BB bet. should I fold?

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09-10-2018 , 10:03 PM

Bob148

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Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 12,135

I fold KQ facing a HJ raise when I'm in position with just 10bb in a tourney, but I'll shove on the button vs a cutoff raise, as well as in the blinds.

When it folds to me with KQ? I'm shoving from two spots off the button, but I'm folding from three spots off the button.

Also, a tiny stack somewhere at the table when near the bubble would make me think twice about shoving lots of hands, not just KQ.

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09-10-2018 , 10:17 PM

pokerhsmtt

journeyman

Join Date: Jul 2018 Posts: 236

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob148

why are you folding with KQ when faced by a HJ raise but shoving with a cutoff raise? what is the reasoning for that?

I shove KQ UTG 10bb deep in a 9 handed game. reasoning for that is I believe i need to double up or win the blinds. in a sat and im on the bubble i will probably fold because i will allow my opponents to gamble before i gamble and this allows me to win the sat.

I'm looking to get better but just wanna see the reasoning or math behind why your folding with KQ.

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09-10-2018 , 10:36 PM

PokerPlayingGamble

banned

Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 4,666

KQ is usually a jam at 10 bbs, especially if there are antes

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09-10-2018 , 10:37 PM

Bob148

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Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 12,135

The more players there are behind you, the more likely you are to be eliminated.

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09-10-2018 , 10:43 PM

pokerhsmtt

journeyman

Join Date: Jul 2018 Posts: 236

Quote:

Originally Posted by PokerPlayingGamble

KQ is usually a jam at 10 bbs, especially if there are antes

Im jamming any two cards UTG with 10BB in some cases. I'm looking to double up in some cases.

even if im up against AA i still have a 20% chance of winning with 72o but with 10BB I'm not going to win the tourny with 15 players left i don't gamble.

if someone has 70BB and I have 10BB i need to get some chips to have a chance.

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09-10-2018 , 11:53 PM

SpewingIsMyMove

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 3,539

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokerhsmtt

This is usually a mistake. In most cases, you will retain fold equity down to 5 to 7 bb, so panic shoving ATC with a large number of players to act behind you is not optimal. I will shove a wide range at this point (AT+, KJ+, T9s+, 55+), but you want a hand that will play well against most calling ranges (usually something like AJ+, KQ+, 88+, depending on the player).

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09-10-2018 , 11:57 PM

SpewingIsMyMove

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 3,539

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob148

Assuming that 10bb is my stack and the effective stack, I am open shoving any position, but not shoving any 3bb open raise, except for maybe button (assuming I am a blind).

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09-11-2018 , 12:04 AM

SpewingIsMyMove

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 3,539

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokerhsmtt

if im 10BB deep in a mtt and I believe I am behind with KQ. I believe someone has a Ace or a pair and they are calling my 10BB bet. should I fold?

You should call if your EV, based on your fold equity and your showdown equity, is positive. If you are facing, say, a preflop open raise of 3 or 4 bb from a tightish player, you can assume that you have no fold equity, and that you are facing a range of something like AJ+, KQ, 99+. Against that range, you have 37% equity. So no, if you are facing an open raise that you suspect is not a steal attempt, you should fold KQ.

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09-11-2018 , 08:40 AM

#10

ArtyMcFly

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Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 13,252

If you have no fold equity, and you think your opponent has you beat, then (unless you are super-short, like 4bb and are in the BB getting a better price), shoving has a negative expectation, because it's pretty much equivalent to calling a shove with the worst hand.
It just comes down to pot odds. If you're contributing 10bb to a pot that will be 22bb when villain calls (for example), then you need to win 10/22 = 45.45% of the time.

Most of your EV when you're shoving pre comes from fold equity. If you have no fold equity at all, you want to have the best hand, or extremely good pot odds.

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09-11-2018 , 06:39 PM

#11

NewOldGuy

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Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 5,934

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpewingIsMyMove

You should call if your EV, based on your fold equity and your showdown equity, is positive.

Your fold equity is always zero when you call.

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09-11-2018 , 07:15 PM

#12

Ray Zee

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Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 17,959

as a general rule when short you shove in spots you think you have a decent chance of winning the blinds. not when someone else will likely call you who is already in. that is only in desperation spots and also where there is doubt about his hand having you dominated.

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09-12-2018 , 08:46 AM

#13

Kelvis

banned

Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 8,737

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokerhsmtt

Im jamming any two cards UTG with 10BB in some cases. I'm looking to double up in some cases.

what

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even if im up against AA i still have a 20% chance of winning with 72o but with 10BB I'm not going to win the tourny with 15 players left i don't gamble.

No, no you don't. Far from it actually.