So I've been playing poker for 3 years, full time for the past 2 and I've beat 25nl-200nl over significant samples (mainly 50nl/100nl).

This is my graph for all stakes for the past 3 years, I'm missing some hands and up more on a non tracked site


I've always lacked discipline in terms of brm/finances/consistency and after a dumb HU shot and spewing at house games I'm broke and trying to grind my way back up from cheeseburger stakes. I'm talking specifically about 5nl-10nl. 2nl I feel is a limit of it own and everyone just punts off stacks. I have maybe about a 400-500k lifetime sample at 5nl-10nl and iirc even back in the day I was only slightly above breakeven. The only reason I was able to get myself to 25nl+ was cause of rb and a small tourney bink that allowed me to start grinding 50nl.

Fish are fish at all levels and its not them I'm having problems with, but these 5nl/10nl regs are driving me nuts I can't figure out how to beat them. I played about 50k hands the past 2 weeks at these stakes and I'm running at like -3bb/100. I feel like my card distribution has been pretty aids but I'd still expect to at least be breakeven.

Vs fish I make the obvious plays but I haven't been that big on stat scanning postflop vs regs since I've always tried to use the 'gto approach', not claiming to be gto but you know what I mean (pio ****). Like if I see an obvious leak I'll exploit it but especially at 50nl+ nowadays postflop its mainly about making the least mistakes vs regs, and that mindset seems to be futile at 5nl-10nl. Idk what I'm doing wrong, I've read a lot of blackrain stuff lately and tried to play a lot more abc but it doesnt seem to be working. I've amped up my fcbets like crazy and tend to give up on most turns, I'm also rarely betting less than 50% cause it seems otherwise everyone just turns into a calling station or the start bluff raising but I feel like these regs are so lost and have so many individual leaks that the only way to win is to play their stats, and I'm currently on party so I switched to FF tables cause of this but I'm still getting raped and its pretty tilting lol. Ik everyone says if you cant beat micros you cant beat higher stakes, and I'm not ruling out the possibility that I've just ran really bad at these stakes but I honestly feel like my problem is I can't 'dumb myself down' for lack of better words (in regards to postflop play vs these "regs"). Ik this comes off as cocky but its the only thing that makes sense to me, other than just runbad+higher rake. I've really tried to adapt a more straightforward approach but it doesnt seem to be working either. Here are my normal stats (~) compared to my micro stats fwiw:

normal,

vpip: 27
pfr: 20
3b: 10
fto3b: 50
RFIbtn: 45
CBF: 55
CBT: 45
FtoFCB: 50
FtoTCB: 30
WTSD: 31

micro,

vpip: 24
pfr: 19
3b: 7
fto3b: 60
RFIbtn: 60
CBF: 82
CBT: 45
FtoFCB: 55
FtoTCB: 40
WTSD: 28

I'm pretty sure those are about right. Also I'm raising about 15% UTG and 17% HJ ass opposed to 18 and 20.

Here are my some hands from today:






VS an Unknown snap betting ukranian, fold pre?






this looks pretty bad but its vs reg with 15% RFIutg, and high fto3b only 1 kjs combo and 2 kqs combos (didnt account for ak) also had a timing tell and felt he's turning 66-TT into a bluff after the ace hit, didnt like the river but I maybe shouldve just folded turn






not to be biased heres a pretty bad call I made but I never saw him x/j set or 2p on turn






Should we 3b jam vs regfish, didn't think he'd fold 2p/set or bottom straight but I think he wouldve jammed q on turn






was jamming okay?






vs another 'reg', maybe I shoulddd just stop calling all together?






vs apparent (unknown) reg, just fold flop?






do we even bother calling with anything less that top pair here?

idk I'll stop there but any tips how to crush these limits? I'm calling too much maybe?

I'm in for a considered response but first a question:

Are you predominantly playing zoom (or w/e form of fast poker) or are you playing 6 max? I don't know Party, so I don't how their hands display.

I usually always played reg 6m but I switched to zoom (FF) now because you can't seat select at party reg tables anymore and at zoom you can actually save HH vs other players which you cant do anymore at regular tables, I played half my hands on stars in the past 2 weeks but their rb is practically non existent so I figured PP is a better site to rebuild my roll. I watched a micro coaching vid today where the guy advises raising like 10% utg and 14% on MP saying that since everyone is a CS you need a stronger range. So Maybe I'm playing too many hand at 24/19? Should I be more like 20/15?

OK, I'm pushed for time right now so I'll amplify/justify what I'm about to say a little later (which I'll pretty much have to do, because I guarantee folk on here will disagree).

By and large you can forget about tweaking ranges and forensically analysing stats...that is unlikely to be the problem.

The problem is understanding the online environment in 2017 (as it applies up to 50nl and probably higher.

First, there is no shortage of fish assuming you play at the right times!! On a Saturday night Sunday morning on Stars 50nlz is a total whalefest, like 400 in the pool 70% fish, whales and tards, 30% regs!!

Second, regs (of which there are also many) are tight, solid and balanced at all levels above 2nl.

there are also "challenges" with rb, but since I only play on Stars I'm not qualified to comment on other sites.

What does this mean.

Reg Speed

You have to play at peak fish hours (note, not "it is best to"...you have to! and you must be good at table selecting/table managing (which is an utter ballache btw)

Zoom/Fast Poker

Again,y ou have to play at peak fish hours (note, not "it is best to"...you have to!

If you only play only at "reg heavy" periods, you will

Suffer high variance.
Get raped by rake.

And you can tweak your ranges and strategies all day long...it won't make much (any) difference.

If you play at peak fish hours, you can play cautiously and balanced against the regs and highly exploitatively against the fish.

And if you are half decent the monies will come in.

I'll take your advice, was gonna sleep tonight but being friday night I'll play the FF tables again as in my last few weekday sessions there was quite a low fish-reg ratio. I'm starting to think I really need to play super nitty to beat these limits cause the rake is really high and marginal hands don't have the same fold equity they do at 25nl+

Just want to add something...what I posted is not just a personal opinion (although I've held for a few years now and posted those thoughts before).

Those ideas also come from some online endbosses I've tracked. One specifically was on the TV a couple of years back and he said words to the effect of...

"my working day starts at 8pm and ends when most people are getting up".

In other words, he grinds when the fish are there and sleeps when they ain't. I was going to mention his 2+2 un, but I see he is coaching now, so I'm not advertising him in BQ, against the rules innit. But he achieved over 4-5 years what most young cash grinders are trying to do.

Precisely. And the answer to this is not to try and tweak your strat. The answer is to not have any weekday sessions at all.

PS

Which is why the life of an online grinder pretty much sucks....I guess that is why that dude is coaching (and taking a cut) now. Get someone else to put the anti-social hours in.

I just now looked at your hands (I didn't look at them b4 I made the earlier comments).

From that lot you posted there seems to be a fair bit of button clicking tbh.

h1 bit of a cooler but why are you raising him (and the raise size yuk)

h2 Squeeze utg and mp with AJs, meh flat is better imo, but w/e, the river call is just awful

h3 Hard to comment constructively tbh. Betting the turn here is just real btn clicking...what are you trying to achieve??

h4 meh, I'm x/c on the board more than betting but w/e. Probably with semi-bluffing on this board is your just not gonna get enough folds. I think your jam comment is outcome orientated.

h5 You are 3betting and bluffing a fish. Again why? Generally we don't want to be calling preflop in the SB, but neither do we want a polar 3bet range - just linear versus fish. Is KJs good enough to 3bet for value??. Unless I had an aggressive 3bettor in the BB I would just flat pre and give up post (bluffing calling stations = -EV). As played the turn is fine.

h6 fine.

h7 Preflop is terribad. If you are going to defend Axs OOP to a 3bet, defend with a 4bet not a call. Postflop, just as bad, you bluff raise flop and then give up when villain caps himself. This hand sums up your btn clicking imo.

h8 fine

From some of your comments about the opposition it's pretty clear you are over assessing your own abilities and are in dire need of some study. I haven't even mentioned your bet sizing, which is very ABC at best. If you want a book recommendation I'd go with The Grinders Manual.

GL

Finally, I'm pretty certain it is against the rules to post more than 3 hands in BQ?

Quite a few people have said that FastForward on Party is now tougher than Zoom on Stars, but I couldn't comment on that bit of anecdotal evidence.
FWIW, Industry figures from tracking sites indicate that Stars lost 19% of its cashgame traffic since bringing in the new rewards program, while Party increased its traffic. Most of the people that changed sites are likely to be pro grinders imo. Game selection also includes picking the softest sites, as well as tables.

I figured/ felt that this was the case and I considered this factor before switching from zoom to FF but yea idk if partys higher rb makes up for it, I may go back to zoom

h1 I think my raise size is fine, Ik most people tend to squeeze smaller but I've always made it 2-1 on the pot oop vs the raiser and I feel its done better for me

h2 yea can go either way but with the higher rake I always lean more towards 3bets

h3 I figured he's got nothing or possibly a worse ace/maybe a draw which is why I wasn't willing to give a free card, his jam really threw me off and I expected a weird bluff rather than a wierd value jam but yea was wrong in this case

h4 I don't see why we'd check here from a theory standpoint

h5 Yea its a bit of a light 3b but I've been trying to avoid calling preflop as much as possible so I think i rather just fold this, maybe this is wrong

h7 I wouldnt say his range is too capped since I can see a lot of micro regs just flatting and slowplaying even sets here ( may be wrong), I think 3bet pre wouldve actually been been better, iirc he may have had a high 3b cause at these stakes vs a complete unknown I'd actually probably just fold this. As for giving up on the turn we turned no equity and our value range here would be just 1 combo 88 and 3 combo tt and I'm not going to consider a barrel on this turn vs these regs

I've actually read grinders manual but thanks for suggestion, its a solid book. My bet sizing as I said before is meant to be very abc at these stakes and I'm almost never betting less than 50% for the reasons I mentioned in my first post, this is mainly based off what I saw/read from blackrain but believe me I could be much more versatile with my sizings but I think thats futile at these limits as there really isn't a need to have properly constructed ranges and I believe its actually worse ev. I think I'm justified for over assessing my abilities, 3 months ago I was still rolled and beating 200nl over a significant sample, I may have over assessed my abilities at HU and played outside my roll which is why I'm here. That said I may atm be a losing player at these stakes, contrary to popular belief I don't exactly believe that anyone who can beat low/midstakes can also beat micros just like that but in terms of relative skill its not even worthy of a debate. I agree that I need more study in regards to these limits specifically and I appreciate any technical suggestions but I don't think I've unjustly over assessed anything

Other than the AJ hand, I don't think any of the other hands are horribly out of line. So if thats the worst bunch of hands you have to show, then you probably aren't playing bad. What you've written also seems to show you are well aware of GTO theory fundamentals. I know that profitable players at mid stakes have a similar handful of questionable hands like this, after 100k hands or so.

No one has so far mentioned variance. Poker variance is so grossly mass underestimated by poker culture. The guys that are 'crushing' are probably just on the top of the variance line, especially if they are using terms like 'crushing'.

Have you considered being staked for higher limits? There are big perils in joining a bad staking company that doesn't give a crap about you, but it could be beneficial to you at this time. Staking companies are filled with good players who are degens with no bankroll management/bad luck.

OP it sounds like you just have one style of playing. You're in a quest to find the games where that one style can win. When you combine it with trying to play GTO where you can't be exploited, you aren't exploiting anyone either. The results are going to be poor, especially in a relatively weak game.

You need to take the next big step which is to adjust your play to your villains. I noticed that you provided no reads, nor stats on any villain in the HHs you posted. When you are playing without any information on your villains in live or HU, you are the fish.

My thoughts are consistent with yours in terms of 2nl just being a punt fest (probably regs or grinders just blowing off steam OR just people messing around for fun, cheap gamble) and that 5nl/10nl regs are tricky to play against. I tend to think from a pragmatic perspective here on why 5nl/10nl are probably harder than 25nl and up. And I'm not a grinder or a full time player so I can't speak on massive volume or proven wins yet.

But put aside the math, the hand reading, the theory for a moment: If someone just wants to "gamble" , have some entertainment, and play some cards maybe to win a few bucks to buy a new TV or fancy dinner, are you going to play 5c or 10c poker blinds or are you going to jump into the blinds that make sense from the experience of $1/2 being the lowest stakes in casinos where the real fun is? I mean if I'm just out to gamble and get lucky I'm not playing for $5 or $10 bucks, I'm playing for $50 bucks, $100 bucks, $200 bucks, maybe more. Even casual fun "home games" are usually a minimum of $20. Think about the whales of poker. Sure some people really just want to play poker and the stakes high or low don't matter. But others just want to play for what in their eyes is money that "matters" and "makes it fun." It's cool to go play $1/2 with no skills and chase that 2 outer in a $900 pot and have a great story to tell your friends about the new 60inch TV you bought for Sunday football with that pot. It's not cool to tell your buddies how you made only $2.76 profit after 7 hrs of $5nl after a nitty reg caught you in a rare bluff on a board they flopped the nuts on.

But if I love poker, love the math, love the theory, love the strategy, love everything about it and am dead serious about grinding it up....where am I playing? Well 2Nl is a shove fest as above, but 5NL/10NL we "could" grind it up. We might be perfectly proud of laying down TPTK in a $3 pot to a $7 shove and we might spend 8 hours a day playing 4 tables of 10NL with our HUD happy to make 2bb/hour to "slowly move up the "right" way and "learn the game cheaply."

The TL;DR of my ramble: If you're just looking for action as a rec player, you're not likely playing below $25NL online...I'm willing to bet that post Black Friday there are more regs trying to "grind it up" from the super micros than there are fish on a friday just having a gamble. That's why it can seem baffling that lower stakes feel harder than higher stakes. That and if you DO run into a good reg at higher stakes and you too are a good reg, you can run lines on them that they can comprehend and read into while at the same time fleecing the guy who thinks $.50/$1 online should be just like $1/2 live. Win/win.

While I understand and largely agree with your sentiment that adapting to villains is very important, this is a pretty misinformed thing to say. Someone playing near-GTO with some slight adjustments will absolutely crush any weak game they're playing in.

It depends on what you have decided that a "GTO" game is. As soon as you start adding in "some slight adjustments" you're not playing GTO. You're playing an exploitative game. The money is in the exploitative portion of your game.

Keep in mind that the best result for both prisoners is for neither of them to talk. Both talking simply prevents one from getting a terrible result. They both get a longer sentence.

This just isn't really true. Someone playing perfect GTO vs lowstakes fish will absolutely clean up.

Its pretty strange to beat nl50 above on solid sample and struggle on micro limits, but i do believe you do have wrong picture about sizings and limits, i think limits dont have anything with sizings but with ranges, and on sizings this is the question i want to ask you.

2 hand, AcJc from BB you 3bet and i like that play , you get called from UTG no stats and reads, so his range is generally some PP not lower than 66 i would assume, some suited brodways and suited A he defends. Flop come 4cKhKs and you are deep with your opponent i think, now you bet in a pot of 1,65 around 0,86. I would bet my whole range here but with a bet 0,40 to max 0,50 leaning towards the smaller size. I would like to know why do you lean towards bigger size in this spot oop deep with your opponent

It's more common than you'd think. Poker doesn't play the same when people play for less meaningful stakes.

many or most players that spew off their bankrolls and try to come back dont ever do it. mostly because their game changes as they are trying to win their way back too quickly.

if you are losing it is because of one of two reasons. you cant beat the rake or the players are playing better than you.