Hey folks,

I am focusing on getting better at cash game 6max NLH. I play at 2NL currently.

I am under the impression that I should develop a range of hands in the SB with which I look to call the BB, rather than open raise or simply fold.

I'd imagine that such a range would generally include hands that I want to see a flop with, and wouldn't mind calling a BB open raise beyond my limp. Hands that if I were to open raise myself, I would really hate to be 3bet by the BB. (And then also possibly mixing in some hands where I look to limp and then 3bet vs BB open raise, depending on the BB player.)

Now, obviously my SB limping range should largely depend on the type of player that is in the BB, and his tendencies.

But I'm hoping a person or two could give me an example of a good SB limping range, against an unknown BB. Just a baseline, somewhere to start.

Thank you in advance,

~BAS

I’m in the camp of never limping. Raise, call, or fold.

Even when it folds to you as the SB, eh?

I feel like there are a lot of hands that when you open in the SB and the BB 3bets you, you get put in a tough spot due to being OOP... Hands like A7s, A4s, A9o, K9s, KTo, QJo, 22

I was under the impression that GTO play would include a SB limping range, but am I wrong on this??

~BAS

At 10 or maybe 25NL (and higher), limping the SB with some hands can be a decent strat. In my experience of the micros, however, you're far better off open-raising the SB at 2NL and 5NL, because villains fold to steals too often, and don't 3-bet light often enough to punish a wide opening range.

It's also very complicated (and hard to remember) if you try and divide your range into raise-calls, raise-folds, raise-4bets, limp-calls, limp-folds, and limp-reraises. You can cut the game decision tree in half without losing much/any EV by eliminating limping entirely.
Same the "balanced" raising/limping ranges and "tricky" plays for when you're up against tougher players.

MMASherdog says you don't even need a limping range at high stakes.

So at micros, forget it

Point taken about playing ABC vs 2nl players, but I will be playing against better players soon and so I guess I'm asking in advance. I used to play at higher levels before my 3 year hiatus, and I'm starting at 2nl now just to ease back into the game.

When you say it can be a decent strategy, and one can lose very little to no EV by not having a limping range, I can't tell whether you think it is part of GTO or not. That is, if I want to take my game to the next level against tougher villains, say low stakes or mid stakes players, is it necessary or unnecessary to develop a SB limping range? (And if you think it is necessary, my main question for this thread is what might an example range look like?)

I also have this question about a couple other strategies, like EP limping with certain ranges, and, considerably more complicated: donking flops. I know that some people suggest never EP limping, and always checking to the preflop raiser when OOP on the flop. But I'm under the impression that at the higher level, working these plays into your game is necessary, because you can put yourself in tough spots by not being capable of such things.
If they are GTO plays and are necessary at a higher level, I want to begin thinking about them more now, and what actions I might take in certain situations if I were not at 2nl.

~BAS

Who is MMASherdog?

And to be clear, we are talking about SB limping rather than limping in general, correct? When you open some of the hands I mentioned in the SB and get 3bet, are you suggesting that I just put on sunglasses and "deal with it," and do my best to figure out whether to fold, call or 4bet?

~BAS

I believe limping the SB is part of the GTO strategy, and even employed it for a few years both for experience/study and as an empirical test. It's fiendishly complicated and hard to balance, as most hands require mixed strategies (e.g. sometimes raise, sometimes limp-call, sometimes limp-reraise), but it doesn't appear to add any appreciable EV. Indeed, if you get your ranges wrong, or your player pool is more exploitable if you take the raising route instead, it just costs you money.
(When I ran filters on my database, I made more money raising with my junk hands, than limping them).

P.S. Sherdog is a highstakes online crusher.

When you open A7s, A4s, A9o, K9s, KTo, QJo, 22 in the SB at microstakes, you fold every single one of those hands to a 3-bet. At higher stakes, A7s and A4s are playable both as calls (of the 3-bet) or 4-bets, because villain will be 3-betting 15% of the time or more. Micro villains have much tighter 3-bet ranges, and all of those mentioned hands play badly OOP vs a tight 3-bet range.

Ok, thanks for the info. Do you have any thoughts on the other strategies I mentioned, like limping in EP or donking flops? Is it worth it to learn that stuff and incorporate it into my game?

And fair enough about leaning towards a fold on most of the hands I mentioned... maybe I was picking examples that were too weak. Forget A9o, what about ATo and AJo?

I got put in what I felt was a tough spot recently, when I open raised one of those hands and got 3bet by BB. I called, and on the flop 642r I checked and he bet. Since he was capable of 3betting pre kinda light, I feel like it would be too weak of me to fold here, but I also don't know what turns I can be very happy with...

~BAS

There are different methods that can work.

100% limp

Raise/fold

Mixed.

As long as you work out the proper responses and can execute well I think they can all work well.

Reminds me of the blackjack debate of which count is best to use.

The one where you will make the least mistakes.

Donking flops is definitely going to be a thing, dependent a ton on positional pair and board texture. That said I'm not sure if donking has really been integrated into play even at midstakes.

Openlimps in EP definitely not a thing.

Yes, I'm talking about SB limping when it folds to you.

MMASherdog is a reg at $50/$100 online and among the world's best players

Yes I am implying it's better to figure out when to fold, call, or 4 bet. It's easier to do that with one range than two ranges as well. You'd have to figure out which hands to call, 3 bet, or fold in a limping strategy if you had one AND have to figure out how to play your SB raise range as well

Also, open limping from EP or anywhere else is awful (A perfectly executed SB limping strategy being an exception). Forget it.

Same with flop donking. There are 200nl+ regs that never donk. You don't have to

Well, I know that it's easier to avoid creating the ranges associated with a SB limp, but I really don't mind putting the work in, if it means I can come closer to being the best player that I can be.

But, if even some of the best players at high stakes are saying there isn't EV to be gained by SB limping, I guess I'll refrain from trying to incorporate that into my game.

I had seen several instances of high stakes players in televised hands limping in EP, so that's what led to me thinking it was actually viable. Perhaps the hands I saw where either recorded too long ago, or the plays were made by fishy businessmen, etc.

Ok, so I'll also not worry about creating a EP limping range.

I feel like I'm getting mixed responses on this one. I would love for more people to weigh in.

Whether I have to or develop a donking strategy to be profitable or not, I want to be the best player that I can be, as I mentioned earlier; I don't want to leave EV on the table for the sake of being lazy.

~BAS

If it folds to you in the SB, I don't think you should ever limp. In fairness, I'm not a big fan of ever limping.

SB vs BB is a spot where it's okay to open a bit wider than you usually do, and that's especially true at uNL. Villain's will fold more often down here. There's the potential that you could develop a strat for limping here, but it would involve also limping stronger hands. That's going to cause you to lose some value over time.

Limping in the SB looks incredibly week. In the BB, if the SB limps to you it's profitable in uNL to raise the entirety of your range. Because the majority of uNL players, if they have anything even marginally playable, are raising from the SB.

Because you're raising slightly wider here than normal, you have to be able to fold to a 3!. Note it, and if it keeps happening, tighten your range until your Villain changes.

No offense OP, but every time I hear someone advocate a limping range, they're usually looking for an excuse to play garbage.

Or widen your 4 bet and calling range.

I’m more inclined to open my continuation range than I am to tightening my open range. I see no reason to pre adjust to someone who may not even be in the pot. (This is also a reason to open smaller in later position when ranges are larger due to more 4 and 5 bets. Wider ranges take more steps to shrink down.)

None taken, I'm not advocating for anything, I just have seen pros limp in the SB and thought it was something I needed to incorporate into my game to take it to the next level. Apparently not.

I feel satisfied with the limping discussion... I'll probably avoid creating a limping range from any position including the SB.

Thanks fellas!

~BAS

You're exactly right that's what's going on


Regarding donking there's plenty else to learn in poker first, way way more important stuff that takes a very long time to learn

Don't take inspiration from crappy live high stakes pros who play worse than NL10 fish-regs.

This is how I think about sb play:

I have different strategies depending on the effective stack. With short stacks (below 15 bb) I have limp fold, limp call, shove, and fold ranges. With 15 to 25bb, my limp range is (empty), I fold some stuff(junk) and I raise 2x with some stuff. With 25+bb, I fold some stuff(junk), I raise 3x with some stuff, and my limp range is (empty).

Antes cause me to limp with deeper stacks(as the implication is that the odds are better and stack to pot ratio is smaller), but my separation of strategies remains the same as above, just with different stack size parameters.

A word on limping with deep stacks: you're gonna get wrecked.

Funnily enough, I had AJo and ATo in my limp-reraising range for the SB, but if you're using a raise or fold strat, you can call the 3b with AJo but probably fold ATo. You just just have to understand that these would be right on the cusp between folds and continues, because they are basically breakeven in that spot.
Once the flop comes, you have to think about the rest of your range. On something like 642r, AJo is complete dogshit OOP, as it's not much better than the worst hands in your range (KQo, maybe KJo, JTs/T9s with no backdoors). You can safely fold the AJo and any other offsuit overcards, because you have so many better hands in your range after calling the 3-bet (TT-55, suited connectors like 76s, 65s, 87s, and any two overs with a BDFD). When you've got sets, overpairs, pairs and combo draws in your range, ace high no draw (particularly an ace high that could be dominated) is an easy fold.

Open limping in certain live games and at certain times is a viable strategy. I wouldn’t do it online pretty much ever though.

That too, as long as you're good with doing that. Overall, my top priority is not to limp. Widening as you do, totally fine.