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Playing against a Manaic Playing against a Manaic

06-10-2014 , 08:24 AM
I was on 888 last night and to my right as someone with a VPIP of 85, PFR of 67, and a 3bet of 45.(this was at 1/2c limit) and I found it very very difficult to play against him with my normal range of hands from any position (other than high pairs JJ+).

The reason I found it difficult is because he would always bet the flop so heavily (at the 1/2c limit betting 3x the pot on the flop) with absolutlely anything because I just couldn't pick his range because it is so wide.

For example, last night I called his raise from the button with AK (raise was 6c) and the flop came very low like 2 5 9 rainbow..he bet right into me 35c and I was just sat looking at it thinking right..I have ace high...he could have absolutely anything here and so on most occasions I would fold unless I hit a high pair. He was unbluffable because he would call absolutely anything so there was no point taking him to the river because if I didnt improve he would keep firing off bets as he did against other people.

I guess the best way of playing against him might be to wait until I hit a premium hand, 3 bet his raise to isolate him and then I really have to hope I catch a decent piece of the flop and make him pay for it.

How would you any of you play against someone that aggressive?
Playing against a Manaic Quote
06-10-2014 , 08:35 AM
If they are 'unbluffable' as you put it then I'm seeing a ton of flops IP against them and valuebetting the **** out of tp+ hands. Holding on for premiums is a bad idea because other regs will stack him before your top 3% hand finally hits.
Playing against a Manaic Quote
06-10-2014 , 08:37 AM
why did you not 3bet AK vs him?

And pretty much hit top pair and get it in or get it in pre with a hand that beats his range.
Playing against a Manaic Quote
06-10-2014 , 08:37 AM
If the other regs are decent, yeah you should 3bet him to isolate in position with anything remotely decent (top 20%).
If the other regs are nitty, you can simply call in position with 50% of your hands. If he bets 3x the pot on every flop, you just need to hit something decent once in a while.

You can also simply play nitty and wait for premium hands / premium flops, but that's a very suboptimal approach.
Playing against a Manaic Quote
06-10-2014 , 08:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwimmerlaike
why did you not 3bet AK vs him?

And pretty much hit top pair and get it in or get it in pre with a hand that beats his range.
The reason I didn't 3-bet him is because I hit absoluetly nothing on the flop, and his range is so wide I don't even know if he has paired...two paired..and I would be raising, knowing he will call it with just ace high. I then will get blasted with a turn bet if I don't improve then as well.

I decided in the end to play a bit looser calling high suited connectors and AX and did eventually take majority of his money with QQ later on. But it was very frustrating!
Playing against a Manaic Quote
06-10-2014 , 08:54 AM
I meant preflop. If you 3bet AK vs him and he ships its an easy call.
Playing against a Manaic Quote
06-10-2014 , 08:58 AM
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...did eventually take majority of his money with QQ later on. But it was very frustrating!
then you have tilt issues
Playing against a Manaic Quote
06-10-2014 , 09:01 AM
I thought it was only tilt if your emotions caused you to play differently? Because I adjusted my range but continued my "unless I hit top pair against this guy or hold an overpair, I can't start shipping chips against this guy because I have no idea what his range is.."
Playing against a Manaic Quote
06-10-2014 , 09:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maddy!
I have no idea what his range is.."
I think you're confusing what range means. Range isn't his actual hand holding, it's spectrum of hands he could have and is something you do know.
Playing against a Manaic Quote
06-10-2014 , 09:40 AM
anytime someone like that is at the table you should be happy to take the free money. like the others said, three bet him when you have the top of your range and know you're ahead. then get it in when you make a decent hand and he'll call almost every time with nothing.
Playing against a Manaic Quote
06-10-2014 , 09:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maddy!
I thought it was only tilt if your emotions caused you to play differently? Because I adjusted my range but continued my "unless I hit top pair against this guy or hold an overpair, I can't start shipping chips against this guy because I have no idea what his range is.."
no, the fact that the fish made you frustrated is a sign of tilting. don't let the fish frustrate you, they are ATMs. isolate them....
Playing against a Manaic Quote
06-10-2014 , 10:13 AM
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the fact that the fish made you frustrated is a sign of tilting
This. And it did make you play differently (assuming of course that you know that the way to beat fish is to value bet them). You were therefore "frustrated" because you were not getting the cards you wanted. This is a lack of patience (an utterly essential ingredient of a good poker player) against the variance of the deal, which leads inexorably to bad decisions = tilt.

Also

Quote:
Holding on for premiums is a bad idea because other regs will stack him before your top 3% hand finally hits.
This is true for higher limits (so you should learn to do it), but it is perfectly optimal to wait for premiums at 2nl, since there are tons of whalefish to collect from. If you are not finding them, then you also have a table selection issue.

PS

Against fish opening/raising this wide (85/67) "range" has no useful meaning (other than range is so wide, villain is a spewy fish), so don't bother with it. Just be aware that most of time villain will have air or thin value post and if he turns up with a decent hand it's just a cooler.

Last edited by Fatboy54; 06-10-2014 at 10:34 AM.
Playing against a Manaic Quote
06-10-2014 , 11:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatboy54
This is true for higher limits (so you should learn to do it), but it is perfectly optimal to wait for premiums at 2nl, since there are tons of whalefish to collect from. If you are not finding them, then you also have a table selection issue.
I don't think that "optimal" is the word you wanted to use. The optimal play is the play which yields the most EV.
If you only play premiums, you are giving up on a lot of EV. Playing hands like K8o against a maniac is very marginal but if you have a strong edge and have position then it can be +EV.

In other words, a good lag will make much more money at 2nl than a nit.
Playing against a Manaic Quote
06-10-2014 , 04:13 PM
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In other words, a good lag will make much more money at 2nl than a nit.

You're probably right...but I never was one for too much theory/hypotheses.

Good LAGs do not play 2nl...they have long since moved on.
Playing against a Manaic Quote
06-10-2014 , 08:08 PM
OP, if this guy just busts out massive overbets on every pot and refuses to fold, your strat is very simple.

See cheap flops with a wide variety of hands, call down when you make TP+ and if he stops betting, bet yourself with the intention of going all in, unless the board just gets completely horrible e.g. it's OK to fold to an overbet OTR with TP if the board has 4 to a flush.

With your premium hands, raise him pre and try to stack off. If his 3bet is 45% then I would ship 100bb effective with 88+/AJ+ or wider, depending on how often he ships or 4bets himself. This kind of player hates folding so I would start by simply shipping straight over any 3bet. If he seems to be able to 3bet fold, then I would 4bet a normal size.
Playing against a Manaic Quote

      
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