Name 3 hands you beat that call the flop.

Sorry for the confusion. I was trying to say that if the BB checks the flop, and we check behind. We see the turn, and the BB leads out with a bet, etc.

Usually call.

Checking the flop is usually the best play here. First of all we're in position, so we're not check-folding the flop here. More importantly by checking the flop we stand to win more on later streets from hands that are worse than ours than we do if we bet the flop.

This is so bad, but I'm not surprised because I see this all the time in 1/2 cash games and that's why they've been profitable for me in the past few years. Like I said, this strategy is ok if you're going to check/fold EVERY SINGLE TIME an ace flops, but if you're ever going to call a bet, then you have to cbet the flop.

Reason being is, if our opponent check calls, they're likely going to check the turn waiting for you to bet, then you can check behind. On the river they might consider betting, and if it's small you call, or they might check again and you can check as well. You kept control of the pot and lost a small amount of money if KK is no good, while getting a bit of extra value when you got called by midpair or whatever.

What everyone else is suggesting is playing your hand face up and blindfolded.

How does us checking the flop and betting the flop magically change the cards he holds? Because he bets the turn, now it's a better chance KK is good? That's insane. This is the problem you face when checking the flop. Now you have absolutely no clue what he has, but with your "OMGDREADEDACE" check on flop, he knows what you have and he decides what to do.

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Papi Shasho, sorry to tell you, but you're wrong.

No, you're wrong. As far as 3 hands that call that flop, I can name a bunch but won't bother. Enough to say that JJ isn't folding. 1010, 99, 88, 87, etc. None of those are folding to a standard cbet.

JJ and TT are probably 3 betting.

80% of the time you bet this board, you're called with better. Sorry. Not ev+

It doesn't change the cards he actually holds, but it widens his range. Here's a couple of examples.

Let's say that before the flop we estimate his range to be Ax, 22+ any suited connector and any 2 cards T and higher. Some hands are less likely because he didn't reraise (for example KK or AK) but not impossible.

How does this range change when we bet the flop and he calls? Obviously he is folding hands that have no chance like suited connectors. Many players will also fold hands that AK now beats, like 55-JJ except of course those hands that hit the jackpot. These are the hands we don't want to fold. If we can give them reason to believe that we don't have AK and their 88 might still be good, they can pay us off. By betting the flop we are encouraging these hands to fold. In other words, by betting the flop we're helping worse hands to play perfectly against us.

If we check the flop we're helping that same range of hands to make a mistake. Once we check the flop his range on the turn is exactly what it was before the flop, only now he is more likely to think our range doesn't include AK. Against the marginal hands like 88, 76, etc we can often get 2 streets of value by betting both the turn & river. If he bests, we obviously call both the turn and usually the river.

In addition some of the hands that would have auto-folded the flop because they had no hope like suited connectors will occasionally take a stab at the turn as a bluff. That's one street of value you can't get if you bet the flop.

Not necessarily, and no middle pairs are calling? Please tell me where you play that only top pair or better calls a cbet.

Some players won't fold these, but others will. Beyond that, if for example 87 would have called 1 bet if we bet the flop, if we check the flop instead and bet the turn & river he might now call two streets instead of just one.

By checking the flop, we're giving ourselves a chance to win more than we normally would from marginal hands.

Yes but he called a bet preflop and the board came A72... his range is now broadways, 22+, AX+ and MAYBE some suited connectors. Now anyone playing a suited connector in that spot will know its no good in that spot when he gets bet at...I mean its hugely negative EV for him to call with 78s on A72 rainbow board. I mean if he really thinks your just cbetting with air and he is floating you your hand cant possibly stand any heat on the flop from a check raise or a large raise on the turn.

If you CHECK the flop back, then bet the turn the guy with 67 will MOST LIKELY call you down because he 'knows' you dont have an A.

This does change for metagame purposes, but setting those aside it is 90% incorrect to cbet KK on a A rag flop like that...Ill leave 10% for player dependant decisions since this situation clearly warrants it

So you're assuming he won't check the flop with a weak ace, and now also lose two bets instead of one, not to mention that most of you are not betting turn and river after checking this flop, and will likely just check all the way down. We can go at this all day. Suffice to say I disagree with almost everyone here, and I'm 100% sure I'm right, but do your thing.

Cbetting with KK even if on an ace raggedy flop makes so much sense I feel like I'm getting leveled. Checking only makes sense if you're planning on check/folding.

Even the micro stakes forum on this site gives better advice then what's being handed out here.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/69...estion-322677/

You realize we're in position?

k go post there because you're definitely a bigger winner than grunch cmar and lego.

And also, to the people who swear they are right and advise not to cbet here, if you don't, then why cbet ever? Are you only cbetting top pair or better? Do you always raise with a pair, and if a higher card flops, never cbet? If you raise pre and miss, you don't cbet because anything that calls beats you?

I just really wanna hear these thought processes because it's fascinating. It's almost like ABC poker in a way. KK on ace high flop is a no go, so that MUST mean that if you cbet you must have top pair or better, or air. Am I right?

One of the greatest things about 2p2 is that there are a lot of very smart people here with a ton of poker knowledge (not saying I'm one of them) that are willing to discuss hands like this in great depth with anyone who is willing to have an intelligent & civil conversation. The greatest players got to be great by thinking critically about their own game, seeking and being open to advice from others, and being able to admit to at least themselves if not others that there might be more to think about than has occurred to them.

Trust me, I've thought this through and can't find a way checking here makes sense, unless you always check/fold, and never cbet at all without top pair or better. This is what I want to know.

You might find this post interesting. Excerpt:

We're in position, you mean check then fold to the turn bet?

One last thing. I personally cbet about 65-75% of the time when I PFR (I typically run around 28/26, in other words, if I'm playing I'm almost always the aggressor) with hands ranging from offsuit gappers that completely missed to the flopped nuts and everything in between. I'll very frequently check in this spot however and get 2 streets of value almost every time against hands like underpairs.