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losing money with three biggest pair losing money with three biggest pair

10-25-2009 , 08:25 AM
So after I lose a 350+bb hand with AA to KK AIPF to a river king. I of course shrug my shoulders. Its going to happen nothing to get mad over. Then I start to wonder how much I have made with AA, KK, and QQ. I end my session a few hours later and take a look. Much to my surprise I am down $2.43 (I play 2NL). I have seen those three hands 102 times. So If this isn't a large enough sample please let me know and I'll go back in the dog house and lick my wounds quietly.

But if it isn't, is there anything specific I need to look for when I dig a little deeper. One thing I can think of is calling of light with KK and QQ when an ace hits the board. Anything else?
losing money with three biggest pair Quote
10-25-2009 , 08:28 AM
We can answer this for you, you need to review those 102 hands and maybe post the ones that leave you in doubt
losing money with three biggest pair Quote
10-25-2009 , 08:48 AM
Considering that you could swing from unprofitable to profitable in one big hand, I'd say it's likely a sample size issue. But in any case, here are some things to consider.

Preflop with QQ, never flat a 3-bet or a 4-bet. Playing OOP w/o the initiative in 3-bet or 4-bet pots sucks.
Keep the Beluga Theorem in mind. When you are c/r on the turn by a passive player, one pair is rarely good.
No slowplaying these hands. They perform best on the early streets, so get your money in then.
losing money with three biggest pair Quote
10-25-2009 , 01:58 PM
Yeah never flat a pf 4-bet. You should be shoving or folding to a 4-bet.
losing money with three biggest pair Quote
10-25-2009 , 04:36 PM
Most likely to much slowplay and not enough 3bet or shoving Preflop.

Post some hands and we can take a look.
losing money with three biggest pair Quote
10-25-2009 , 06:21 PM
here are all the hands that I am questioning my play

hand #1 Villian is running 48/22/57

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (MP1) ($1.42)
MP2 ($1.72)
MP3 ($2.98)
CO ($0.90)
Button ($5.40)
SB ($2.78)
villian (BB) ($1.20)
UTG ($5.93)
UTG+1 ($6.13)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q, Q
2 folds, Hero bets $0.08, 5 folds, villian calls $0.06

Flop: ($0.17) 3, 6, 9 (2 players)
villian bets $0.10, Hero raises to $0.37, villian raises to $0.64, Hero raises to $1.34 (All-In), villian calls $0.48 (All-In)

Turn: ($2.41) J (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($2.41) 4 (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $2.41 | Rake: $0.10

Villian showed AA

hand #2 villian is running 25/8/30

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($5.06)
UTG+1 ($2.99)
Hero (MP1) ($2.09)
MP2 ($5.40)
MP3 ($1.40)
CO ($1.22)
Button ($2.74)
SB ($8.06)
BB ($1.06)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q, Q
2 folds, Hero bets $0.10, 2 folds, CO calls $0.10, 2 folds, BB calls $0.08

Flop: ($0.33) J, A, K (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.21, CO raises to $0.74, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.53

Turn: ($1.81) 8 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $0.38 (All-In), Hero calls $0.38

River: ($2.57) K (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $2.57 | Rake: $0.10

villian showed JJ

hand #3 villian is running 36/13/29

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($5.40)
SB ($0.18)
BB ($1.78)
Hero (UTG) ($2.41)
UTG+1 ($0.52)
MP1 ($1.13)
MP2 ($3.06)
MP3 ($1.08)
villian (CO) ($4.90)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q, Q
Hero bets $0.08, 4 folds, villian raises to $0.22, 3 folds, Hero raises to $0.50, villian calls $0.28

Flop: ($1.03) K, 8, 8 (2 players)
Hero bets $0.75, villian raises to $1.50, Hero calls $0.75

Turn: ($4.03) 6 (2 players)
Hero checks, villian bets $0.80, Hero calls $0.41 (All-In)

River: ($4.85) 3 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $4.85 | Rake: $0.20

villian showed AK

hand #4 villian is running 14/0/70

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG+1 ($5.01)
villian (MP1) ($0.86)
Hero (MP2) ($1.97)
MP3 ($2.23)
CO ($2.82)
Button ($5.37)
SB ($5.05)
BB ($3.31)
UTG ($5.13)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K, K
2 folds, villian calls $0.02, Hero bets $0.10, 5 folds, villian calls $0.08

Flop: ($0.23) A, 8, J (2 players)
villian bets $0.04, Hero raises to $0.22, villian calls $0.18

Turn: ($0.67) 4 (2 players)
villian checks, Hero bets $0.44, villian raises to $0.54 (All-In), Hero calls $0.10

River: ($1.75) 3 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $1.75 | Rake: $0.05

villian showed A10

hand #5 villian is running 16/2/27

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG+1 ($2.83)
MP1 ($5.11)
MP2 ($0.43)
MP3 ($3.47)
CO ($5.16)
Button ($1.50)
Hero (SB) ($2.43)
BB ($0.98)
UTG ($4.92)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K, K
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.02, 2 folds, MP3 bets $0.44, 2 folds, Hero raises to $1.10, BB calls $0.96 (All-In), 1 fold, MP3 raises to $1.76, Hero calls $0.66

Flop: ($4.52) 4, 10, 4 (3 players, 1 all-in)
Hero bets $0.67 (All-In), MP3 calls $0.67

Turn: ($5.86) 9 (3 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($5.86) J (3 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $5.86 | Rake: $0.25

villian showed AA

and the last hand villian is running 46/31/32

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($3.34)
UTG+1 ($4.50)
MP1 ($2.95)
MP2 ($5.44)
MP3 ($2.61)
Hero (CO) ($3.32)
Button ($0.97)
SB ($4.93)
BB ($1.79)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A, A
4 folds, MP3 bets $0.06, Hero raises to $0.12, 3 folds, MP3 calls $0.06

Flop: ($0.27) 6, Q, 10 (2 players)
MP3 checks, Hero bets $0.13, MP3 calls $0.13

Turn: ($0.53) J (2 players)
MP3 checks, Hero bets $0.26, MP3 calls $0.26

River: ($1.05) 5 (2 players)
MP3 bets $0.76, Hero raises to $2.81 (All-In), MP3 calls $1.34 (All-In)

Total pot: $5.25 | Rake: $0.25

Q10

There are two more hands, but for some odd reason pokerstars says they can't find the hand.
losing money with three biggest pair Quote
10-25-2009 , 06:28 PM
the last hand is played bad.

1: you min raised
2: you need to shove flop reguardless, dont wait until the river

but as played just call the villans river bet.
losing money with three biggest pair Quote
10-25-2009 , 06:28 PM
Based on the advice you've been given so far, is there anything different you would have done in any of those hands?
losing money with three biggest pair Quote
10-25-2009 , 06:56 PM
1st hand:
I would flat call the 3bet or fold.
Biggest leak for alot of people is they fall in love with a big pair and cant see they
are beat.
Say you just flat the flop and he bets the turn and you call.River he shoves are you
still going to call?
Its one of the first leaks most people work on.

2#This is just a ugly flop for you.
Two over cards,straight draw and possible flush draw.
Not even factoring in the fact he shows up with trips,I think you would be best folding this hand after the flop HU.

3#This is a hand that villian might have gone allin with PF.
When the King hits the flop you have to ask if this in his range.
Fact that you keep getting 3bet on the flop and losing should be looked at.

4#This isnt really a factor so much at this lvl but your flop bet is really weak and pretty
much asks did you hit it villian?And most people will respond with a hell yeah I hit it 3bet.
His AT isnt that strong but he isn't going to fold after that flop,so again when
over cards hit think about folding based on history with the villian.

5#A lot of your play if PF and flop and you are usually all-in before turn.
If villian is only 3betting when he has a hand you can turn this into a easy fold.

6# Ok this is one hand I think you can change up.
You slow rolled this one a little and got burnt for it.
Just either shove or 4bet PF,with a lean towards shove.


A lot of similiar hands.
I think the best thing for you to do is start focusing on what the villian might have in these spots.When the flop hits you with over cards and no way to connect them you
should fold unless player is bad and you have a great read on them.

Last edited by Truckin; 10-25-2009 at 07:00 PM. Reason: .
losing money with three biggest pair Quote
10-25-2009 , 08:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajrenni
Based on the advice you've been given so far, is there anything different you would have done in any of those hands?
#1 with villian leading out, should of folded

#2 c/c or c/f. reason for c/c is because I have a straight draw. but with what villian is running, probably c/f

#3 raise more pf, probably even shove, considering I'm ahead of a lot of hands that are in his range. As played, c/f considering that some of the hands i put him on included a king.

#4 I wouldn't of changed anything on this hand up untill the turn. Here I should of slowed down. and c/c or c/f depending on the size of his bet.

#5 I think this hand should of either been a fold or shove pf. Looking at it again, I think fold based on his stats and the size of his raise.

#6 Should of raised more pre-flop. probably around .20. flop and turn wouldn't change. River either a call or fold.

is my thought process better now than it was during the play?
losing money with three biggest pair Quote
10-25-2009 , 11:24 PM
Wow I just looked at my $.01/$.02 stats for AA and KK

I have made $84.88 over 392 hands with AA and KK and I buyin for 100BB's so that is like just more than 42 buyins in the plus for me with AA and KK over 392 hands. DAMN!!!

Where do you play?
losing money with three biggest pair Quote
10-26-2009 , 05:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoMeansNo
Wow I just looked at my $.01/$.02 stats for AA and KK

I have made $84.88 over 392 hands with AA and KK and I buyin for 100BB's so that is like just more than 42 buyins in the plus for me with AA and KK over 392 hands. DAMN!!!

Where do you play?
pokerstars
losing money with three biggest pair Quote
10-26-2009 , 05:13 AM
[ ] sample size

Its impossible to play aa/kk/qq in a losing fashion at 100bb poker, they are far too strong.

I find aa/kk//QQ profitability to be a big part of your "varience" You'll break even when they b/e, lose when they lose and win when they win. Provided you're a winning player of course.

AA-QQ should be the easiest hands for you to play, so they are a Metric for your entire game imo.
losing money with three biggest pair Quote
10-26-2009 , 05:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Smaug
[ ] sample size

Its impossible to play aa/kk/qq in a losing fashion at 100bb poker, they are far too strong.

I find aa/kk//QQ profitability to be a big part of your "varience" You'll break even when they b/e, lose when they lose and win when they win. Provided you're a winning player of course.

AA-QQ should be the easiest hands for you to play, so they are a Metric for your entire game imo.
so what would be a good sample size?
losing money with three biggest pair Quote
10-26-2009 , 06:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bubonicplay
the last hand is played bad.
Yep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bubonicplay
1: you min raised
Yep, that's not good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bubonicplay
2: you need to shove flop reguardless, dont wait until the river
Um, what? With ~$2.50 behind effective, and 27c in the pot (more if hero makes a decent 3bet pre), you want to just shove the flop? Please don't do this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bubonicplay
but as played just call the villans river bet.
Agree.
losing money with three biggest pair Quote

      
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