So I've read quiet a few guides out there saying "Value bet your best hands, check your middle hands and bluff your worst hands."

I do not get the whole rationale. Why would I check my middle hands rather than bluffing them too? The argument in the "How to win at Texas hold'em" MIT course is that betting will make better hands call. So that is true with a middle hand (like a middle pair or something) but equally true with a bluff too off course. Why wouldn't I boost fold equity with at least some showdown equity and bet middle hands too?

Here is another example:
https://upswingpoker.com/aggressive-...trategy-spots/

For the example the flop is
8-6-5

and you hit top pair out of position as big blind against a pre-flop aggressor. They do not recommend donk-betting it and I don't see any reason why. If the aggressor is tight, 8 is not within the range of him even. If he has A10+ or KJ+ and you bet half the pot and he has a good reason to believe you hit a pair he doesn't have the pot odds to call you, assuming there is no flush draw or so. If checking, he might check also to see a free card that makes you beat. I think that is a situation where the big blind should definitely donk bet. Am I missing something here?

If you bet middle hands you get called by better hands and you fold out worse hands and also deny them a chance to bluff. This is exactly how you don't win money in poker. If he has 2 overcards he has 12% to beat you on the turn, is that such a disaster? In any case I suggest not donkbetting at all until you understand why.

Also what happens if you bet your weak pairs, what does it tell me when you check?

That methodology isnt an absolute though. You can absolutely bet middling hands on wet boards where a large portion of their range and calling range is to be weighted towards drawing hands.

A quick example could be you open A5s UTG and MP calls.

Board comes 457dd. Your hand is of middling strength but a wide portion of his range will call a bet and be behind.

So you're happy when you get called and a 3,6,8,9 or diamond rolls of, or even when it blanks? By "behind" you mean a hand that still has 40% equity?

The question seems to revolve around betting weak hands {'like a middle pair or something'} but in the hand example you have TPTK so its a fairly different scenario. What is the pre flop action exactly in the hand example?
If I flatted an open oop and made TPTK on a 8-6-5 rainbow board then I'd mostly be check calling. Every over pair is in villain's range. How can you bet say A8 for value against such a wide range in that spot.
In terms of hand reading you'r also making some questionable assumptions. Villain can easily float a flop donk with overcards on this flop. You'r describing the spot as if your opponent will have to fold unpaired hands if you lead. Even a tight opponent can open scs in late position.
Overall it seems like you'r looking for one type fits all advice; e.g if this happens then do this. Poker doesn't work like that. You can have a general strategy but it should always be open to adjust on the basis of a myriad of factors you haven't touched upon in the op such as stack sizes and player tendencies.

Wouldn't be happy, no. I'm sure there are some combos of overs calling as well in that scenario. It would still be a profitable bet if you're able to play turn and river correctly, albeit very difficult.

On a basic level, you want to bet for 2 main reasons: Get called by worse (a value-bet) or make better hands fold (a bluff). With middle pair (or a middling top pair), you don't get called by many worse hands, and you never fold out better ones, so the bet lacks purpose. It just bloats a pot that you're unlikely to win if villain doesn't fold.
You generally maximise profits by polarizing your betting range with strong hands and bluffs (so you get value or gain fold equity) and by checking your mid-strength hands to keep the pot size under control and give you a chance to win a small pot at showdown. (Or get a cheap/free card to improve to a hand that can genuinely bet for value).

Until you've learned the basics of polarization and valuebetting/bluffing as the pre-flop raiser, I'd recommend you avoid donk-betting as a the pre-flop caller entirely. You'll just get yourself into difficult spots like most fish do. (Data analysis of large sample sizes has shown that donk-betting - on average - loses money).

P.S. As with most of the free Upswing articles, that one is OK on generalities, but it's actually wrong to specify that the BB shouldn't ever donk on 865. It's just too complicated (and way beyond the scope of BQ) to describe what an optimal donking range would look like in that kind of situation. That said, you can crush microstakes if you literally never donk, and it's a lot easier to remember a simple "Never donk" strategy, than a GTO one.

You are thinking about it backwards, if you are in the bb and call a button raise with A8o and flop TPTK on an 8 high flop you are looking to essentially bluffcatch. You check he bets K9o and you call. If you bet out and turn your hand into a bluff, what hands does he now call with? The hands are better than what he bets with. So by donking you just lost value for you hand.

Yeah it's true that if he doesn't suck he will check back say KQo turn a Q and have you beat, but that doesn't mean that your check is incorrect. He could also check back AK or something turn an A while you just turned top two. When you are calling OOP it's virtually never a good play to donk out rather than check/call in this scenario. You lose almost any value your hand would have had if you had taken the more standard "passive" line.

After reading the responses, in my opinion, this is the most important aspect that took me awhile to understand as well. I believe your main concern in this example is that you feel that you're hand is ahead and too strong to check since there are a lot of bad turns (any overcard, 7, 4, etc) and you want to take the pot down now (which is why you feel betting is correct), and if there wasn't a turn / river then it may make sense.

Since you are looking for a general rule of thumb, I try not to inflate pots where I am OOP with marginal hands. I believe A8 and flopping TPTK is still fairly marginal because you are OOP, its not a bad flop by any means for you but it is still a marginal spot (if that makes sense), when proceeding forward I would do as most recommended and check flop allowing post flop better to continue. There are some run-outs that simply don't favor you and you will be faced with some decisions where you open yourself to being bluffed / getting drawn out on, but playing post flop is a skill you will need to learn in cash games.

Simple rules of thumb can’t account for the whole complexity of poker.

The reason you should check an 8 in the hand you described is not because “you’ll make better call and fold out worse and this is bad”, it is because he has JJ+ and you don’t.


But there are definitely situations to bet middling hands. Say you are the PFR in the CO. BTN calls and everyone folds.

Flop is 553 rainbow. You hold 66. You might well want to bet here.

ZerooZ welcome ... I always find it interesting that a first time poster can put together a pretty impressive post AND include a link! Well done. I think you are getting some pretty good responses from 'long time' posters ... so that also is impressive for a first time post! From your post you seem to be beyond 'card' player and your question is right up 'poker' player alley.

One of the most famous responses on this site is 'It depends' and your post just begs for this response! When you play poker you don't want to 'always' do anything. Commonly called 'balance', it's how we try to keep our opponents guessing over the course of a long session/history. It's also a common theme that when we don't have any history with an opponent that we play 'ABC' poker until we establish a better understanding of their game play.

The Donk bet, which was one of Johnny Chan's major 'weapons' during his WSOP heyday, has shown to be as exploitable (if not more so) as it can do your game good. Things to consider:
1) The original Raiser's range compared to the Flop
2) Your 'perceived' range in the eyes of the Raiser
3) History
4) Stack depth
5) Opponent's style/type of play ... Why Donk into a passive Calling Station with a below average holding?
6) Your 'perceived' style/type of play in the eyes of the opponent.
7) How comfortable are you playing out of position if the opponent flats?
8) What size does your Donk bet needs to be to send the 'correct' message?

Don't confuse range and style. Although they can be related they are not one in the same. TAG is different than LAG and so on ... One opponent may see a Donk bet as a sign of 'current' strength, another may see it as a sign of vulnerability and yet another may see it as trying to build a pot or creating fold equity on a large draw. And some opponents are just too stubborn to fold after they PFR. Which of these is the 'best' chance for profit over the long haul?

IMO a Donk bet has much more success during tournament play when an OOP big stack can Donk into a short/shallow PFR when the Flop is 'bad' for the PFR's range. Cash player's tend to be a bit more stubborn for the obvious reason that they can reload!

I like to Donk bet, but it is definitely a tool that can lose it's effectiveness when used too much. GL

I am glad you perceived my post as such Thank you answer20 and all others for long an informative answers.

Now I have tried to almost never donk bet, and I think my playing has improved a lot. Here is what I experienced (you have all pointed out these things):

• Reducing some of the informational disadvantage being out of position. By almost always checking when being first, the PFR has to figure out themselves wether you have something or not, and I can profitably call bluffs and easily quit without spending any when I have small opportunities to improve. Sometimes I get to see a free card and improve a lot.
• Related to the first, but it lets me pick up other peoples bluff bets many times, instead of just shutting the pot down by donking it.
• Pot control makes so much sense. If the pot grows out of hand, it can be very expensive to bluff it by the turn/river. And, when there it is is easier to get a player to fold if it seemed they missed a draw. However, I lost many chips on called bluff bets into large pots before.

I have learned a lot from watching this player:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqt4aBOuWeE

What I was most amazed to found out is how many players bet basically air, and how he has such a good player read for when this happens.

Most poker beginners guides say like "almost bet,bet,bet". It worked at first, but I don't quiet agree anymore. There must be a purpose with the bet, and that purpose depends on the situation as you all say.