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le suited connectors le suited connectors

01-26-2022 , 07:45 AM
Charts which I use(gto wizard ones) Have a lot of mixed strategy with suited connectors, for example from UTG 98s/65s with quite low frequency from 10-20% open and 78-90f( dont remember correctly) My question is, why if you open them so rarely in theory, why it shows as 100% call if u opened them and get 3b for example from HJ?
I'm playing micros and I know that mostly villains will have value heavy 3bets especially in EP, but why solver charts prefer to play them oop with 100%? Especially that other hands are more of raise or fold than call? Hope I make some sense what i'm trying to ask, cheers.
le suited connectors Quote
01-26-2022 , 08:23 AM
If you would put a value heavy 3bet range in a solver it wouldn't be calling with suited connectors as much.
Once villain deviates from GTO, by not 3betting a GTO range, it's no longer optimal to play GTO (Nash) against them.

Everything GTO Wizard does is assuming it's against an opponent playing "perfect" GTO.
This strategy will work no matter what your opponent does.
But once your opponent deviates, more optimal strategies that exploit those deviations become available.
A simple example: villain has a value heavy 3bet range, so as an exploit we should fold a bit more vs their 3bets.

I'm not exactly sure why GTO likes calling SC's, but here's what I suspect:
- easy to play post, you either connect or you don't (a good bluff/draw is also considered connected, FE: 98s on a 762r board)
- you're less likely to get into much trouble, like 98s flopping 952r, it's unlikely (still possible) that your opponent has a better TP hand
but on the other hand if you'd call KJo, if you hit the K or J, you don't really know if you have the best hand or not and are likely to lose more
- board coverage, which is probably completely irrelevant at online micro stakes
le suited connectors Quote
01-26-2022 , 08:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeodan
If you would put a value heavy 3bet range in a solver it wouldn't be calling with suited connectors as much.
Once villain deviates from GTO, by not 3betting a GTO range, it's no longer optimal to play GTO (Nash) against them.

Everything GTO Wizard does is assuming it's against an opponent playing "perfect" GTO.
This strategy will work no matter what your opponent does.
But once your opponent deviates, more optimal strategies that exploit those deviations become available.
A simple example: villain has a value heavy 3bet range, so as an exploit we should fold a bit more vs their 3bets.

I'm not exactly sure why GTO likes calling SC's, but here's what I suspect:
- easy to play post, you either connect or you don't (a good bluff/draw is also considered connected, FE: 98s on a 762r board)
- you're less likely to get into much trouble, like 98s flopping 952r, it's unlikely (still possible) that your opponent has a better TP hand
but on the other hand if you'd call KJo, if you hit the K or J, you don't really know if you have the best hand or not and are likely to lose more
- board coverage, which is probably completely irrelevant at online micro stakes
I guess that's where nodes come in so you can see for yourself by editing them if villain have value heavy 3b range? Don't get me wrong when i hit that 98 in my 1-100rng im sb vs btn open wtih my 65s im like hell yeah baby lets have some fun but i'm just wondering if i just eliminate those type of hands for now considering rake, how much ev do i really gain vs general pool? I like to play them don't get me wrong, because i'd consider myself to be quite cautious postflop and I try to not make too many blunders, but poker isn't always what you like to do isn't it. Would it make sense to use this type of hands later positions since people don't really defend 3bets as often either?
le suited connectors Quote
01-26-2022 , 02:05 PM
like he said, its mostly about board protection.
if i know you only 3b broadway/call 3b with broadway, and the board comes.. nonbroadway .. its pretty easy to figure out how you could be exploited.

if fish vil isn't thnking like that, making mpbk with 78 for the sake of playing 78 isn't going to earn you $$

were forced to play them vs thinking vils

granted, at high enough spr/ multiway, we could be priced in to see a flop and bink.. like a high spr lotto ticket. that's the main exception

Last edited by LordPallidan12; 01-26-2022 at 02:15 PM.
le suited connectors Quote
01-26-2022 , 04:29 PM
Most of those hands are ~0ev, but by calling what is usually going to be ~equal proportions of each sc (or pocket pair) you get good "board coverage" which can in turn result in higher EV for your entire range.

Fold all hands ---> other guy can 3b more

Call all hands ---> exploitable postflop

Call all of 98s, but none of 87/76/65, etc. but overall frequency is solid, then you lose EV on a variety of board textures.

Rather than looking at suited connectors it's probably more intuitive to look at the pocket pairs since pocket pairs facing a linear 3b range are more obviously "equal in value". Like if you are opening UTG and then MP is 3b or fold and has some linear 3b range of like 99+ and some broadways, your pocket pairs 88-22 without considering blocker effects and other stuff are going to have pretty similar equity against that range. Rather than folding all of them, calling all of them, or doing some calling of lets say only 88 and folding 22, they are equidistributed with calls (as they are all ~0ev), but now you have more reasonable board coverage and therefore can play better on a variety of board textures rather than only some. This should be relatively intuitive if you think about it like that.

Again this is at equilibrium though and since these hands are ~0ev you should deviate accordingly based on reads/other info etc. Sort of unlikely someone is omniscient of your range perfectly to the point where knowing you are folding 77-22 100% and calling 88 is going to cause them to play differently on some subset of flops where you're not going to have those sets, etc.

Again, to reiterate once more. If you know they are 0ev in a vacuum, then unless someone knows your strategy and is specifically exploiting it in some way then its still going to be 0ev if you fold 100% or call 100% or whatever.

Also, since you're specifically talking about UTG you might notice hands like JTs/QJs get folded at higher rates (potentially 100%) compared to the 65s, and that's because QJs =/= 65s when comparing the ranges because QJs will just be easily dominated whereas 65s~54s~76s etc. MP in this spot has AQ/KQ/QJs/QQ+, etc, but not hands like A6s, so there is a bit of range asymmetry when comparing those.
le suited connectors Quote
01-27-2022 , 05:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brokenstars
Most of those hands are ~0ev, but by calling what is usually going to be ~equal proportions of each sc (or pocket pair) you get good "board coverage" which can in turn result in higher EV for your entire range.

Fold all hands ---> other guy can 3b more

Call all hands ---> exploitable postflop

Call all of 98s, but none of 87/76/65, etc. but overall frequency is solid, then you lose EV on a variety of board textures.

Rather than looking at suited connectors it's probably more intuitive to look at the pocket pairs since pocket pairs facing a linear 3b range are more obviously "equal in value". Like if you are opening UTG and then MP is 3b or fold and has some linear 3b range of like 99+ and some broadways, your pocket pairs 88-22 without considering blocker effects and other stuff are going to have pretty similar equity against that range. Rather than folding all of them, calling all of them, or doing some calling of lets say only 88 and folding 22, they are equidistributed with calls (as they are all ~0ev), but now you have more reasonable board coverage and therefore can play better on a variety of board textures rather than only some. This should be relatively intuitive if you think about it like that.

Again this is at equilibrium though and since these hands are ~0ev you should deviate accordingly based on reads/other info etc. Sort of unlikely someone is omniscient of your range perfectly to the point where knowing you are folding 77-22 100% and calling 88 is going to cause them to play differently on some subset of flops where you're not going to have those sets, etc.

Again, to reiterate once more. If you know they are 0ev in a vacuum, then unless someone knows your strategy and is specifically exploiting it in some way then its still going to be 0ev if you fold 100% or call 100% or whatever.

Also, since you're specifically talking about UTG you might notice hands like JTs/QJs get folded at higher rates (potentially 100%) compared to the 65s, and that's because QJs =/= 65s when comparing the ranges because QJs will just be easily dominated whereas 65s~54s~76s etc. MP in this spot has AQ/KQ/QJs/QQ+, etc, but not hands like A6s, so there is a bit of range asymmetry when comparing those.
Had to re-read this several times But I think i got it, thanks
le suited connectors Quote

      
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