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JJ Facing Reraise from BTN JJ Facing Reraise from BTN

03-17-2008 , 06:37 AM
Was scared of a higher pair. But now I think he was playing position. Player just came to the table. So no reads. But while I was taking time to decide he typed "zzzZZZZZZZZzzzzz" into the chat box.
Was I too passive here?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

SB ($2.55)
BB ($6.55)
UTG ($6.55)
Hero ($18.15)
CO ($12.45)
Button ($10.25)

Preflop: Hero is MP with J, J.
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.5, 1 fold, Button raises to $2, 2 folds, Hero calls $1.50.

Flop: ($4.15) 5, 8, 3 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $4, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $4.15
JJ Facing Reraise from BTN Quote
03-17-2008 , 06:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by krabava
Was scared of a higher pair. But now I think he was playing position. Player just came to the table. So no reads. But while I was taking time to decide he typed "zzzZZZZZZZZzzzzz" into the chat box.
Was I too passive here?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

SB ($2.55)
BB ($6.55)
UTG ($6.55)
Hero ($18.15)
CO ($12.45)
Button ($10.25)

Preflop: Hero is MP with J, J.
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.5, 1 fold, Button raises to $2, 2 folds, Hero calls $1.50.

Flop: ($4.15) 5, 8, 3 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $4, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $4.15

Do you have any reads on the person? If so what kind of hands does he normally play? At this level things can get kind of interesting as I have seen people raise all in on a missed flop with AJ or better or with a mid-high pocket pair.

I think you either need more info on the person to make the call here. Chances are he is trying to protect AJ or higher but you might be running into pockets. Fold until better read
JJ Facing Reraise from BTN Quote
03-17-2008 , 07:01 AM
With no reads it's a bit tricky but I would most likely re-raise him all-in as played. It's possible he has a higher pair, but more likely he has some broadway cards and is firing at the flop as he is in position and you have checked to him.

Why did you check the flop? Personally I would have taken control of the betting and fired a bet on the flop, there are too many cards that could come on the turn that could hurt you if he checks behind. Also, by checking to him you show weakness, so we cannot determine whether his bet is genuine or using position to take a stab at the pot. A flop bet from you would gather more information.
JJ Facing Reraise from BTN Quote
03-17-2008 , 07:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psych0Mantis
Why did you check the flop? Personally I would have taken control of the betting and fired a bet on the flop, there are too many cards that could come on the turn that could hurt you if he checks behind. Also, by checking to him you show weakness, so we cannot determine whether his bet is genuine or using position to take a stab at the pot. A flop bet from you would gather more information.
I normally would've c-bet here. But this hand occurred right at the end of my session and I had just reached my goal. So in a sense I was playing with scared money. It's kinda silly cause my roll is big enough to play this hand properly. But this was my first time actually reaching my set goal for a session and didn't want to lose it.
JJ Facing Reraise from BTN Quote
03-17-2008 , 08:13 AM
This is just my opinion, and I am a relatively new cash game player myself so perhaps others can advise you better, but the problem I see with setting artificial limits on your wins/losses each session is that it can cause you to play suboptimal poker. In this instance, you are saying that you eased off and relaxed because you had met your goal for the day. If you had been down for the day, would you have played the Jacks more aggressively to try and break even? That could be a major leak, you need to focus on maximising value from each hand you play and making the correct decisions at all times regardless of your stack size.

You say you are adequately bankrolled so there is no need to play with scared money.
JJ Facing Reraise from BTN Quote
03-17-2008 , 09:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psych0Mantis
the problem I see with setting artificial limits on your wins/losses each session is that it can cause you to play suboptimal poker
Absolutely. The idea of setting limits is just plain wrong. You need to make correct decisions or stop playing.

A new player getting this aggresive is scary but with that hand on flop I think I am shoving here. At micros I really have to put villains on a fairly wide range unless I have info to the contrary. If villain is betting this large on that flop I just don't see him on QQ, KK or AA - I think he would be betting less to keep you in the hand so I think probably Ax is most likely scenario. I think you are winning more often than you lose here.
JJ Facing Reraise from BTN Quote
03-17-2008 , 09:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psych0Mantis
This is just my opinion, and I am a relatively new cash game player myself so perhaps others can advise you better, but the problem I see with setting artificial limits on your wins/losses each session is that it can cause you to play suboptimal poker. In this instance, you are saying that you eased off and relaxed because you had met your goal for the day. If you had been down for the day, would you have played the Jacks more aggressively to try and break even? That could be a major leak, you need to focus on maximising value from each hand you play and making the correct decisions at all times regardless of your stack size.

You say you are adequately bankrolled so there is no need to play with scared money.
Thanks for the response. The goals I set for myself are merely there to keep me moving in the right direction. Like I said in my previous post, this was the first time I had actually reached my goal. It just so happened that the goal was met at the same time I wanted to stop and take a break. I know from experience that forcing yourself to play until you reach a certain number is a horrible idea. In my past, there were times when I was just a dollar or even pennies away from my goal and I would try to fight through the various variables to reach it. More times than not, this lead to me ending the session several BI's down. In this particular instance, the hand simply became more complicated than I wanted to deal with. So I decided just to cut my losses and stop(the pot size raise threw me off).


My thinking on the hand:
If I lead into the flop with a 2/3 bet and he calls, where does that leave me on the turn? Easy decision to bet again on the turn if a rag hits. But what if it's another heart or an over card. I'm check-folding on either one of those. I also felt that he might reraise me if I bet into the flop, judging by his preflop aggression, and I just couldn't justify calling a flop reraise. So I thought I could control the pot size by check-calling the flop and hoping for a rag on the turn. But the pot size bet confused me.

I'm fairly new to poker myself and still have a lot to learn...
JJ Facing Reraise from BTN Quote
03-17-2008 , 07:31 PM
The $4 bet could have just been a continuation from his opening raise. A check-raise would have told you where you stood; check-calling tells you nothing when you very possibly have the best hand. When out of position betting/raising is generally a better strategy than callling.
JJ Facing Reraise from BTN Quote
03-18-2008 , 12:02 AM
This is a good example of why setting goals/limits can be one of the worst things to do. I hope you take the advice here and stop doing it. It would be way better to not even know if you were up/down after a session than to know if you have/haven't reached some goal.

As for the hand in question, i might 4 bet pre-flop if i thought he was playing position and fold to a re-raise. If I thought i was beat, I'd just call and look for set value.

On the flop I can also see raising him and folding to a re-raise.
JJ Facing Reraise from BTN Quote
03-18-2008 , 12:47 AM
I have to agree with the first few posts, the way the hand panned out it wasn't really that terrible of a fold. You didnt have enough information on the player to be willing to stack off, however you probably shouldnt have called his re-raise pre-flop unless your intent was on hitting a set.

In the future, here's an idea, limp with JJ, or any pocket pair below this and aim for set value. I find it more profitable playing these hands less agressively.
JJ Facing Reraise from BTN Quote
03-18-2008 , 04:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BUFF BLUFMAN
In the future, here's an idea, limp with JJ, or any pocket pair below this and aim for set value. I find it more profitable playing these hands less agressively.
Hate this advice I'm afraid.

If you are 1st to act and are going to play then raise. I'm not sure what your 5xBB raise was trying to achieve but in your example a 2 1/2 or 3xBB is about right.
JJ Facing Reraise from BTN Quote

      
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