Well, it could be worse, you could be blaming the rig...

But 2NL and 5NL is full of idiots. Especially at 2NL, there are players who shove over your 3bet preflop with hands like AT and AJ, they fold to 1/3 pot cbets when the board misses almost your entire range, they fold their blinds too much, they can't defend against 3bets very well, they play too loose with weak hands. Move up to 25NL and the vast majority of the player pool know what they're doing and play pretty well.

I'm willing to do that IF someone can give me advice on coaching and study groups.

You didn't answer my question OP, so I'll rephrase it. If you would put 300$ on pokerstars right now and play 10Nl 6max exclusively, would you be able to reach 750$ bankroll given infinite time available for this task?

If you started a challenge thread and posted hands in the micro stakes NL thread then I will happily post opinions on hands. Along with many of the other posters in the micro stakes NL

Plus it is pretty good to look at a bankroll and say I started with 30 buyins at 2NL and now have so much in my account.

Your post reads like a true degenerate and the game is having a serious negative impact on your life. I'd suggest you walk away thought I'd be surprised if you actually can.

He's got a point!
You've gone DeGen!
Now is the time to just manage your disease!
Take time out to masterbate and relax...
Don't take advice from chat or forums seriously...
Do take advice from people you know "live" seriously, regarding how your "doing"...
Don't worry too much til someone stages a "World of Warcraft" type intervention...
And then chuck the computer into the River!!!

Apologies, I'm not answering posts in a chronological order at the moment.

Yes given infinite time I could reach a $750 bankroll playing 10NL on Pokerstars. My hourly would be awful but I could reach that level.

No one cares about your hourly rate at micros.

Ok. So, that means that you are able to beat the limit after the rake, which makes you an ok player. I am a believer that 10NL is the single limit that separates bad players with ok ones. There are no good players at 10 NL.

Now, lets say, given an infinite time, would you be able to go from 750$ to 1500$ bankroll, playing exclusively NL25?

$450 @ $10NL is

225,000 hands at 2bb/100
90,000 hands at 5bb/100
45,000 hands at 10bb/100

Assuming 70 hands per hour:

225,000 hands is 3214 hours single tabling - That's 160 weeks at 20 hours per week, 80 weeks at 40 hours per week.
90,000 hands is 1286 hours single tabling - That's 65 weeks at 20 hours per week, 33 weeks at 40 hours per week.
45,000 hands is 642 hours single tabling - That's 32 weeks at 20 hours per week, 16 weeks at 40 hours per week.

225,000 hands is 1607 hours 2 tabling - That's 80 weeks at 20 hours per week, 40 weeks at 40 hours per week.
90,000 hands is 643 hours 2 tabling - That's 32 weeks at 20 hours per week, 16 weeks at 40 hours per week.
45,000 hands is 321 hours 2 tabling - That's 16 weeks at 20 hours per week, 8 weeks at 40 hours per week.

225,000 hands is 804 hours 4 tabling - That's 3 weeks at 20 hours per week, 20 weeks at 40 hours per week.
90,000 hands is 322 hours 4 tabling - That's 16 weeks at 20 hours per week, 8 weeks at 40 hours per week.
45,000 hands is 161 hours 4 tabling - That's 8 weeks at 20 hours per week, 4 weeks at 40 hours per week.


So, should take you about 2-3 months.

Or you could just keep on losing money...

Beat me to it.

OP since you are the master of every game possible I play PLO8, your best variation. Any stakes you feel comfortable. PM me that SN, I can only play on Bovada but I am sure we can make this work if you are actually interested.

Edit: willing to sign up for another USA friendly site

From what I've read, yeah, you should quit poker.

You won't take the time to build your bankroll at smaller stakes and don't win otherwise.
How can a losing player be worried about hourly rate?! It obviously improves as you win and move up in stakes.

Coaches don't all cost a ton, it would be pretty easy to hire one to help you find your leaks.

You're not a pro. Considering job-satisfaction and hourly rates are irrelevant at this point. Quit dreaming and face reality. Win consistently for a couple years, then think about whether you might like to play poker for a living. Until then it shouldn't be a consideration. Obviously you can't now or any time soon.

If you still want to play, play because you enjoy the game and keep trying to improve. Don't expect to win without getting better if you don't win consistently now!

Playing NL25, yes I believe I could do that if I was given infinite time. But I can't know for certain.

I know your next question will be about NL50. I have come across some very aggressive fish at NL50 who will do things like bet, bet, shove with middle pair but NL25 and below, people play so passive with these marginal hands. I love to play these aggressive fish.

Ok thank you kindly for the numbers. I can play 6 tables quite well so that would cut down my time a little. Anything more than 8 tables and I struggle.

I can't message people for some reason. How do I message?

asriva - you might do. depends on what stakes you play at.

plo9 - I don't think I'm a master of every game possible. I don't want to put that impression across. I have only played Omaha Hi, not Hi-Lo but I know the rules of Hi-Lo. I have an account on Carbon Poker and Americas Card Room for the US friendly sites.

Well, I too have an account on Carbon. When would you like to take this journey?

wheres this thread going ...

To your location.

to the bank for another deposit?

OK, you've established that you can beat NL2 and NL5, that you can't beat NL25, and that you prefer to play NL25. You need to beat players you respect? A dozen other people have suggested just moving up through the ranks, using the limits you beat to fund your progress. Why is that too difficult? You're a student, so your free time isn't valuable. (not to be insulting, but it just isn't). Consider the "wasted" time an investment in being a good enough player to beat real games, rather than being worried it is only a few $/hour.

Poker isn't a get rich scheme. You don't get an hourly out of the gate. Once you've gotten good at one game, maybe you can make a good hourly at that. Some people can't ever do it, because they have whatever the opposite of an aptitude would be. Let's assume that isn't you, and you have at least average aptitude. You've played several kinds of poker over a total career of 18 months, and you're mad that you don't crush small stakes? What is that, like 3-4 months of intensive study per format? Pick one game, and move up through the ranks -- this is exactly the same, good advice you've gotten several times.

Congratulations. You've found perhaps the best study group in the world. 2+2 poker forums. You have both BQ and microstakes full of people willing to talk poker and to help you out for free. If you're willing to listen to the good advice that will come from all sides, this is a wonderful place to improve as a player, make good friends, and maybe even make it to the mid/high stakes (if I can do it, you can too).

Coaching? Let me advise you to pass at this point. You're still a micros player. A decent coach will cost you more than your BR in a very short time. You've got the same problems that everyone else had, so generic forum advice will be fine. Do the NL forums do hand swaps? If so, become the best participant of those that you can. Free coaching. Get into the small stakes and knock on the door of mid-stakes before considering coaching -- at that point, assuming you learn well in the fashion, you could get benefit.

There is no shortcut. Beat NL10. Then move up. Beat that. Then move up again. The most important thing is understanding and being able to internalize the knowledge that has been given to you to use it at game speed.

Otherwise, be happy as a rec player at stakes you can afford.

Also, CryMeARiver has given you for free most of what your paid coach should tell you.

No, not really. I don't really think that you can beat NL25 for any winrate through significant hand sample. People that are able to do so, don't lose to rake.

You're implying that NL50 is easier to beat than NL25. Its not true. I don't precisely think that those players are fish, they probably play laggish. If you want to play with laggish opponents - deposit 3k and go to nl100. But I guarantee you, that "aggressive fish" will crush your 20/16 style a lot faster that you " would lose it to rake".

Beat NL10 for respectful winrate for respectful sample and then go play the fish you think you can beat at the higher levels.

think of it this way :it is better be a micro winner then a low stakes loser

Unless you don't care about a few $/hour either way.

I think it is part of our OP's problem, as well. The only way poker is fun/worthwhile is if he makes a good hourly rate. Even just winning isn't enough. Few people win to start, and many fewer now than in the past. He's seeing poker as a business, from day 1. How many people in the "Should I be a Poker Pro" thread feel the same way? If your entire view of poker is focused on making significant money, you're almost certain to be disappointed. You're 100% focused on results, and in the short term your lack of skill makes the results you want nearly impossible. It presents a lose/lose situation.

Then people put in time studying, but all of us suspect that it is like the kid who sleeps with his Algebra book under his pillow -- fair or not, claiming hard work is hard to believe. Now if the dude were a forum trooper, showed up without fail for every hand history review, and posted amazing strat on 2-3 forums... then we're right there. Hard work, where are the results? I've seen people who posted really well who were unable to move up, but the numbers are few.

The reason working your way up from the bottom helps is that each step gives you deserved confidence. Some DC or CR hero giving you knowledge isn't the same as you being able to apply it. By working up through the limits, your self confidence is based on real experience (and some positive variance). Thus, I agree with what you're saying. I just think that the OP thinks it would be dumb and prove nothing. It may be hard to convince him, or anyone in his particular boat.

OMFG That's awesome!!

Biggest laugh of my week!

quoted for emphasis

How are you going to apply strategy against monkeys? Bad advice.

lmao I love this thread!

Yes fair enough I see what you're saying. Some of them will be LAGs but when they call a hand like 84 suited from the blinds to a middle position open, and don't have a full stack, I have reason to believe they're fishy.

I actually genuinely believe when I have the discipline, I can make small amounts of money from the game and win for a small winrate. That's the funny thing about all this. I have been able to run deposits up and be up anywhere between £20-£500 (depending on the stakes I played at).

Yes you're going to say I just ran hot, but I believe it was disciplined play. For example, I ran up about a £120 profit playing PLO10 and PLO25 on Partypoker a few weeks ago. I played a very discplined, TAGish style, as many as 8 tables at a time, and I was clearly better than the players who I was playing. I ran about average, not too hot, not too cold, and I found it pretty easy. On the downside, the hourly is poor.

The trouble is I continue to play and want to make more money of course. I begin to overestimate how much I can win, how quickly I can win it and how high I can get my hourly. I start to play more in games full of mostly tight grinders who won't really pay you off your hands, but also they don't fold enough that you can just cbet/double/triple barrel all the time. I will have one or two terrible sessions which will wipe out my profit and then some. Like in the Partypoker example above, I had one terrible day where I gave most of the money back making bad triple barrels, bad bluffs and bad calls because I overestimated how quickly I could make money. I ended up withdrawing only £6 profit.

This is the general theme. When I deposit, 90+ percent of the time I end up ahead, but I continue to play and one or two bad sessions will wipe it all out and then some.


I'm starting to think I should deposit, play for a short while each day. Once I'm up 3 or 4 buyins or more (as long as I don't run terrible), I should withdraw, take a break for a week, and begin again. Unless of course the games are especially fishy at the time. My biggest problem has been playing too long and playing too long sessions, trying to push my hourly higher and trying to push the amount of money I can realistically win. When in hindsight, it has not been +EV to do that.

Would be nice to hear your thoughts on this.