So I've played various forms of poker off an on for years. However, recently I've decided to take it a little more seriously but only as a hobby. However, as a hobbyist I'd like to be able to (even slightly) beat the games I play in. I want to play exclusively live and near me that limits me to limit holdem games. So for the past few weeks I've been playing in a fairly loose (4-6 players to most flops) and passive (rarely more than 1 bet per street) 4/8 game. I figure after the rake (10% to $5 plus $1 BBJ) and tokes ($1/pot) the game is likely beatable for a few bucks an hour.
Now all of that history is to lead up to this question. I see a few players who have all the appearances of being winning players sitting in this game and routinely turning over A2s winners by catching a flush, 34o winners by turning boats, etc. If you believe Ed Miller these guys are clearly playing way too wide a range yet they are significant winners from what I can tell. My question is how? Is it possible that these guys simply outplay the donators to such a degree that they can be profitable playing such a wide range?
The reason I ask is that, based on the pots that I have played with them, they clearly know how to play the "chase every draw donator" but they also know that I am playing tight and aggressive and are likely moving me off my medium holdings by bluffing. However, every time I feel like they are doing that and I either call with hands like second pair they end up showing me something like middle two pair after entering the pot with 75o.
Ordinarily I wouldn't be getting myself in to trouble with second pair in this game but the frequency with which these guys bet tells me a significant portion of their bets are just trying to pick up the dead money and I just can't seem to come out ahead trying to pick off their bluffs.
Short answer: The bigger your postflop edge, the looser you can play preflop.
Simple example: You can play 72o profitably if your opponent can't see the community cards. If you can't see the community cards, even playing AA is no fun.
Short answer: The bigger your postflop edge, the looser you can play preflop.
So the answer to my unasked question is that I'm probably being outplayed a lot of the time in pots with these guys and should just let them continue to bluff until I have a big hand and focus on making money from the weaker players rather than worry about protecting marginal holdings against stronger players whose bluffing frequency I'm not yet strong enough to exploit.
Have you actually seen them bluff and get called? What kind of hands are they bluffing with? I mean do they bluff with missed draws, or do they turn bottom pair into a bluff?
In passive games, you shouldn't expect to see much bluffing, especially multiway. They might show up with some "random" straights or two pairs, but if they are putting a lot of money in the pot, they can often beat top pair.
You can beat such players by playing somewhat tighter, such that your "average hand strength" post-flop will beat theirs in the long run, but if everyone plays very loose (and there are lots of multiway pots), you'll experience a lot of variance, by which I mean big downswings (as well as upswings) in the short run.
FWIW, I sometimes play very low stakes online on a Friday night for lolz. It's often the case that the player with the biggest stack is technically the worst player, and he's just the classic "fish on a heater". The solid players (including ubernits) destroy them in the long run. You can afford to lose a lot of small pots if it means you end up winning a whole stack with aces. You just often have to wait rather longer than you'd like to get that big pot.
A2s is a good hand. Suited cards, especially suited aces, are quite valuable in LHE.
34o is not.
If they are entering pots with 34o when they're not in the blinds (except maybe on the button after like 6 limpers), they are not a winning player.
I'm thoroughly convinced that the two i am thinking of in particular are significant long term winners in the game as I often see them buy in for $100 and cash out a few racks. I would chalk it to variance but they are pretty consistent and talk with enough knowledge that they aren't complete donks.
I haven't seen them turn over many (if any bluffs) as there are enough chasers in the game that once they see someone has a hand they give up without a strong holding. But their flop and turn betting frequency tells me there is simply no way they are betting with hand that beats second pair every time they do it.
There are essentially 3 types of players I have seen in this game: the guys who buy another $100 every orbit and play virtually every hand and complain that they can never hit heir draw, the guys I am talking about in this thread, and plainly obvious nut peddlers who may as well play with their cards face up. Clearly the guys I am talking about know this and play accordingly.
The pots I am talking about above are generally when I am heads up with them. They likely see me as more in the nut peddler category and know they can push me off anything but the nuts. Maybe I'm wrong and they are just catching good against me in the few pots that have mattered. I just want to make sure I'm not giving them so much money by folding to every bet they make that I can't raise that what I can take off the crazy loose players ends up entirely in their stacks on the nights I don't catch and they bluff me off everything.
Where are they playing these hands from. As stated earlier if they are voluntarily putting $ in the pot with 34o they clearly have some MAJOR leaks. That being said in the land of the blind the one eyed man is king
For the youngsters in the forum, the OP is talking about LIMIT poker. I don't know that Miller has ever written a limit hold 'em book and if he did, it was years ago. So you can't take anything that Miller wrote in say that last 12 years or so and apply it directly to limit poker.
Limit is more of a drawing game than NL. Calling a single bet with A2s in a game with little raising pf or on the flop isn't a bad play, especially in position. Say the flop sees 4 players and a FD comes on the flop. Somebody bets. There's 5 bets in the pot and it only costs you one to call. You're getting 5:1 to play and are 4:1 to hit the FD. Calling is profitable even if everyone folds on the turn (which at 4/8 limit is never going to happen).
So a disciplined player post flop could play a lot of speculative hands in this environment. Now at a tough limit game where people are raising, not calling, this can become unprofitable.
