Hey. Lately iv recognized the dramatic increase in 3betting/4betting (expectually from internet kids) compared to fewer years ago. I feel like im a generation behind and need to evolve my game. I dont understand what is going in these people's minds when they 3bet and 4b all the time. Can someone please fill me in on the purpose/idea behind this kind of aggressiveness (and why come the game has changed so much compared to a few years ago).

Depends if they're 3betting light or for value? For value it should be fairly obvious why they're 3bet/4betting.

If they're doing it light then it's for a # of reasons:

1) Isolate the initial raiser/fish.
2) Balance range so people find it harder to put them on a hand rather than just only 3betting JJ+, AK etc. So they'll 3bet something like 64 suited some of the time to mix things up. It helps them get action when they have the legit hands as people think they're capable of doing it with a lot of hands.
3) If they know a person opens weak from a certain position when they 3bet the person thinks "omg they have aces!" and folds.
4) Helps to build a big pot so if they hit can get all the money in on the flop.

4betting light is probably not the best of ideas when playing only 100bb deep and it's something you'll need to have a good read about it. That's some general stuff about it, i'm sure others can elaborate/correct me later

for me, mathmaticly, isn't 3betting light usually result in -EV? i feel like ur risk-reward ratio isnt justifiable for u to 3bet light too frequently. you're putting more money into spots where u have marginal hands. i know people usually do it to balance their play and make them harder to read, but is that enough to account for all the times u lose ur 3bets.

You should 3bet people light more often who're folding more often to 3bets, esp. when in postion.

So if you see someone stealing like 30+% and folding like 70+% to 3bet it's +EV to 3bet them light :P Some people even fold 75+% and you can pretty much 3bet ATC vs them

Remember the basics, "3betting light" is the same as saying "3bet bluff" hands that you're not willing to get all your money in with preflop, so you are doing it if the V who opened the pot is willing to fold. A lot of people are stubborn preflop and they should not be your targets. Others fold a ton to 3bets and ought to be exploited, if you don't think they're going to fold a ton, don't do it.

Although it may very well be "-EV" that currnet hand, it can, as said, result in larger profits later.

The purpose is to balance your range. If I know you are 3betting only AA then am I ever going to give you any action? Pretty stupid question OP.

That's why he's in the beginner forum. You're berating a beginner. Cool.

Pretty stupid answer you mean.

Maybe you misinterpreted the 'beginner's thread' as being the 'big winner's thread'?

Dip****.

Well he mentioned he had been playing for a few years. Didnt even notice I was in the beginners forum. It's still a silly question he already knows the answer to. The reality here is that OP is getting 3bet a lot and is annoyed and doesnt know what to do, so instead of adjusting or finding fault with his play, he is trying to find fault with theirs.

Question: "Why would someone bluff me?"
Answer: "Why do you think?"

OP - try not to think of 3betting as something that is distinct from a raise. It's just a raise with a fancy name.

Imagine two different villains:

Villain A calls 3bets with 90% of their opening range.
So you can 3bet at least AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK, AQ, AJs, ATs, KQ etc and expect them to call with worse hands. So you build a bigger pot by raising and having them call with worse.

Villain B folds to 3bets with 90% of their opening range.
Now 3betting AA, KK, QQ etc becomes a bit pointless because they are going to fold virtually time and you will only win a very small pot. But now you can 3bet with hands that would be -EV to call their raise with like A5o, K8s, 43s etc. You don't expect those hands to have any EV against a normal opponent, but now you can exploit their fear of 3bets and get money from hands you normally wouldn't.


So even though there's not many villains as extreme as in these example, you should be able to see why it is profitable to have a fairly wide 3betting range - whether polarised vs an opponent who folds a bit too much, or a wide value range against opponents who call a bit too much.

As for 4betting, the increase in this is directly related to the increase in 3betting. I posted a thread today about a villain who 3bets about 20% (crazy high) but folds to 90% of 4bets. This means we can exploit him by 4betting with any two cards and show a profit!

The key thing while playing is to observe what hands villain shows up with in 3bet pots so you can establish if he 3bets a polarised or wide value range. Once you know this, you can exploit his strategy accordingly.

No, 3-betting should be like printing money. You should take down the pot a lot pre and a good amount post-flop too.

Seeing as you answered this question incorrectly, it prolly wasn't a stupid question

im sry for not wording my question a lil clearer. i completely understand all the balancing ur play and all that. the point i was trying to get at is the mathmatical background behind 3bets (if there is one). most of ur guys' answers r based on the villian's style; but i want to know the mathmatical evidence that may support/unsupport 3b in situations where u dont know ur villian's style. idk if i really make much sense lol, but im just trying to think outside the box. any discussion is appricated, thanks.

o ye, another quick question. lets say, if u know a player on the button that has a high stealing % (folded around to the him) and ur one of the blinds. how large should ur 3b be for the best possible risk-reward ratio.

It should always be based around style. There is no mathematical probability that says you should always 3bet x amount of the time. You do it to maximize your edge vs your opponent, whether it's for value or as a bluff. It sounds like you want a formula for how often you should 3bet/4bet and how often you should fold, but there is none. Your play should be directly dependent upon his play.

As far as defending your blinds, again there is no set amount you can resteal with vs a button raiser. Typically people wont call much more than 3-4x their bet when they're stealing. If they do call, then they probably have some hand they think is worth playing in position against you, like a PP or suited connector. But it's still entirely player dependent. You could 3bet jam your whole stack in and still get called wide by some players. You could also min3bet and get folds. Dont worry so much about the size of your bet but rather how you intend to play the hand.

Simple maths example below:

No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($149.20)
BB ($33)
UTG ($269.50)
MP ($99.50)
Hero (Button) ($100)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q, 8
UTG bets $3, 1 fold, Hero raises to $9

For this is be profitable preflop, UTG needs to fold 66% (youre risking 9 to win UTGs $3 plus the $1.5 in blinds)

So in this example assuming UTG is raising 16% and is continuing with 6% (ie 38% of the time) it makes this play slightly losing at -$0.63

This obviously does not take into consideration anything that occurs postflop / if the blinds cold call the 3bet / any extra money you win later on by 3betting a lot etc