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ICM HELP ICM HELP

06-24-2014 , 08:31 AM
Need to understand ICM without the maths, I play live so no option of using a ICM calculator. The following is the sort of layout I am looking for which is most probably incorrect.

ICM
When 5-8 handed on final table even if you have a pair 7’s-J’s
Or A10+ you can fold if there are x <7bb and x<15bb short stacks,
If you are up against A shove from a similar stack 30bb+ or there is a rise
from a EP player and a re-raise for more than 60%+ of your stack and you
have a hand in that folding range you can think about folding especially when
shoving is giving your opponents the right odds to call. This is because the equity you gain by winning doesn’t exceed the % change of losing x$ prize for calling, this can be applied to the money bubble.
Only consider calling when the player is really good thus calling and winning
Will give you a massive edge to win the tournament.

When considering shoves, you need to look at who is in the blinds and try to figure out their
Calling range have you seen them call shoves with A7 for example when you have k8 and
Are thinking about shoving.

Yours Faithfully
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06-24-2014 , 11:31 AM
I'm afraid it really isn't that simple at all. Things change dramatically based on not only your exact stack size, but also the stack sizes of those remaining and the prize pool distribution.

In short, the more top-heavy the prize pool, the more you will fold in neutral-cEV or slightly positive cEV positions as a middle or large stack. The flatter the payout structure, the more it will be like a cash came where you are taking all +cEV spots.

I think a beginner would be better served learning good push-fold fundamentals than studying ICM. Push-Fold charts can be relatively easily memorized. ICM requires calculators AND hinges on actually knowing your equity in a situation in tournament compared to your equity in the prize pool.
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06-24-2014 , 12:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TopCat79
Need to understand ICM without the maths, I play live so no option of using a ICM calculator. The following is the sort of layout I am looking for which is most probably incorrect.
No one playing online uses an ICM calculator whilst playing, even if they do they're idiots.

So maybe the question you should be asking is about how to go about studying using an ICM calculator.

If you're talking about not being able to record hands and that's why you can't use one then stop being lazy and write down some hands.
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06-24-2014 , 02:33 PM
Op,

I don't think you understand what ICM is, what's it is used for, and how to apply to your game.

Primarily its for pre game study (using ICM simulators, of which there are many) and post game analysis (using something like HEM with SNG Wiz plugged in) to see the CEV of your decisions.

Without knowing stacks and prize structure ICM is impossible/meaningless, so, in the context of your question sussing ranges means **** all.
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06-24-2014 , 02:54 PM
So the last section where you say its knowing your equity in a situation in a tournament compared to your equity in the prize pool; is their a easy formula for this, as I am past the push/fold level. My past problems are when I am on final table and I have a pair 77++ raise and get shove on and lose or had AK someone open shoves who's a rookie player who I know I have beat call and gets a straight on the river with A10. This ICM I wasn't taking in to consideration thus I would of thought about the overall situation i.e my chip stack compared to my opponents, money payouts and who is likely to bust next
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06-24-2014 , 03:04 PM
Why can I not estimate in reallllll time, as I will roughly know the stack sizes and definitely know the payouts. And will be able to recall on recent past hands to try to work out the calling and shoving ranges of my opponents.
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06-24-2014 , 05:50 PM
Icm is just a way to put a $ value to the stack size you have.
To use this to make a decision you need to calculate your stack size $ value if you fold using icm and your stack size if you win weighted for how often this happens and compare them.
Icm tools do this for you but you can do it yourself using an online icm calculator and a standard equity calculator like pokerstove, it's long winded though.

Understanding how the $ value changes is very useful but difficult and comes with experience of using one of the tools to go through lots of hands.
It is not just your own stack that matters but the also the stacks of others at the table.
If you are 7 handed and you have 5bb in early position you cannot say what your $ worth is as it depends on the lay out of the other players stacks. If you are the smallest stack you should probably push really wide but if there is a 1bb stack currently utg you should be much, much more tight.

We all have a bit of an icm like calculator in our heads, for eg. few players do push very wide when there are micro stacks present and often correctly call tighter when a bubble approaches. You can train this internal icm like calculator to be more accurate by doing some work off the table with an icm tool and working through lots of different spots.

Also icm does not take into account some important factors you you have to make reasonable adjustments yourself - more experience needed here too.
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06-24-2014 , 07:10 PM
Study some sng stuff.... Books.. Videos... This will really help u.

We sng guys are faced w these decisions all day every day.

Gl
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