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How should I play the big slick (AK) and other big non pairs pre flop against a raise/re-raise? How should I play the big slick (AK) and other big non pairs pre flop against a raise/re-raise?

11-26-2012 , 06:37 PM
The title says it all basically.

Depending on if I have AK, AQ, AJ etc. what is the best continuation if I face a raise or if I myself raise and face a re-raise. I know this is a very general question. I'm mostly interested in pre-flop heads-up scenarios at a full ring table such as the following one.

I was out of position against a raiser and everyone folded, so it was just me and him. I had AKs so I re-raised him and in turn he re-raised me. I would not dare to go all-in here but I was thinking about re-raising yet again thinking "if he goes all-in I know he had aces and if he just calls he might have KK or less" but I just called. You probably notice from my poker reasoning that I'm a complete beginner

What are some general rules about raising, re-raising and calling with these Ace high cards pre flop?
How should I play the big slick (AK) and other big non pairs pre flop against a raise/re-raise? Quote
11-26-2012 , 06:53 PM
Give us hand histories !

Now way to answer such a general question helpfully
How should I play the big slick (AK) and other big non pairs pre flop against a raise/re-raise? Quote
11-26-2012 , 08:55 PM
^^+1

You need to post stack sizes and villains tendencies at least to get a sensible response.

But to give you something to chew on...

Assuming you are in the micros, 4bet ranges are going to be pretty narrow, so your AK usually not doing great.

Quote:
I would not dare to go all-in here but I was thinking about re-raising yet again thinking "if he goes all-in I know he had aces and if he just calls he might have KK or less
This is just wrong every which way. What you are saying is you would 5bet and then decide whether to continue or not, if villain 6bets. Either your well deep, or something is massively wrong with the bet sizing to make this scenario even remotely credible. Anyway, preflop most regs will play AA/KK pretty much the same.

And against a 4bet AQ, AJ usually crushed (micros again).

Quote:
I would not dare to go all-in here
If you're short stacked...easiest play in the book.
How should I play the big slick (AK) and other big non pairs pre flop against a raise/re-raise? Quote
11-27-2012 , 12:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatboy54
^^+1

You need to post stack sizes and villains tendencies at least to get a sensible response.

But to give you something to chew on...

Assuming you are in the micros, 4bet ranges are going to be pretty narrow, so your AK usually not doing great.



This is just wrong every which way. What you are saying is you would 5bet and then decide whether to continue or not, if villain 6bets. Either your well deep, or something is massively wrong with the bet sizing to make this scenario even remotely credible. Anyway, preflop most regs will play AA/KK pretty much the same.

And against a 4bet AQ, AJ usually crushed (micros again).



If you're short stacked...easiest play in the book.
So playing micro's you'd expect to be dominated if you hold AK, AQ or AJ and face a re-raise but in a higher stakes game this is not necessarily so, is that what you are saying?

This is unrelated but should I mostly trust the regs I play in micros when they raise, re-raise and so on and should I try to exploit them for the same reason that if they check it usually means weakness?
How should I play the big slick (AK) and other big non pairs pre flop against a raise/re-raise? Quote
11-27-2012 , 12:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yoyobo
Give us hand histories !

Now way to answer such a general question helpfully
I don't know how!!
How should I play the big slick (AK) and other big non pairs pre flop against a raise/re-raise? Quote
11-27-2012 , 12:58 AM
This is a hugely generic question and either requires more specific information or needs to be answered by writing a book. Suffice it to say it depends on villain tendencies, position, action prior to the point you need to make a decision, stack size and hand strength - AKs is a lot stronger than AJo for example.
How should I play the big slick (AK) and other big non pairs pre flop against a raise/re-raise? Quote
11-27-2012 , 01:04 AM
General rules (what you asked for) for big aces:

- AK/AQ raiseable preflop from any position
- Squeezeable preflop from any position after OR, including blinds, depending on the vil
- Vulnerable to a reraise
- Super vulnerable to you flat calling a reraise preflop

Those are just a couple of general, VERY general guidelines. Everyone else in the thread is correct, you really need to give more information to get proper advice on how to play the hand.
How should I play the big slick (AK) and other big non pairs pre flop against a raise/re-raise? Quote
11-27-2012 , 01:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by peachfuzzle
General rules (what you asked for) for big aces:

- AK/AQ raiseable preflop from any position
- Squeezeable preflop from any position after OR, including blinds, depending on the vil
- Vulnerable to a reraise
- Super vulnerable to you flat calling a reraise preflop

Those are just a couple of general, VERY general guidelines. Everyone else in the thread is correct, you really need to give more information to get proper advice on how to play the hand.
Next hand I get I will post it here in this thread for your advice.

When you say it is vulnerable to re-raise and flat calling a raise could you expand that a bit further do you think?
How should I play the big slick (AK) and other big non pairs pre flop against a raise/re-raise? Quote
11-27-2012 , 02:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bingfa
Next hand I get I will post it here in this thread for your advice.

When you say it is vulnerable to re-raise and flat calling a raise could you expand that a bit further do you think?
Sure, but be reminded, this is only my general thought on the subject, and probably doesn't reflect the sentiment of everyone else.

Vulnerable to a reraise = your AK/AQ really shrinks up preflop when a tight/nitty player raises you. At that point in time, you have to start considering their range, and this is where your gained information comes in. A tight player at lower levels is probably only going to be reraising preflop with big pairs, maybe JJ+, but I would say at least QQ+.

Vulnerable to flat calling a reraise = Unless you're in a leveling war, which you're probably not going to be at this stage (not a dig, just being honest), you are going to be giving a lot of information out about your hand by flat calling. Think of what you would do to another person if you had a REALLY big preflop hand like Aces, or Kings. You would 3bet them instead of just flat-calling.

Flat calling a reraise in lower limits generally gives your opponent the notion that you have AK/AQ, possibly AJ, or something like 1010-QQ, although QQ would probably also reraise in this situation.

You're vulnerable because of the information you're giving to the other person, and they will play you according to that information depending on their skill level.

Again, this also depends on the information you have on your opponent considering what you might be able to do against a loose aggressive/loose passive player, you wouldn't be able to do against a tight aggressive, or even (possibly especially) against a tight passive player.

Of course, that is just very general, yet again.
How should I play the big slick (AK) and other big non pairs pre flop against a raise/re-raise? Quote
11-27-2012 , 02:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bingfa
So playing micro's you'd expect to be dominated if you hold AK, AQ or AJ and face a re-raise but in a higher stakes game this is not necessarily so, is that what you are saying?

This is unrelated but should I mostly trust the regs I play in micros when they raise, re-raise and so on and should I try to exploit them for the same reason that if they check it usually means weaknessk
Ak is way stronger than AceJack in many situations

Aceking can be a shove, acejack can be a fold to a 3bet....

Your question is very general, reads matter and what your opponents think if you matter. Eg I had a nitty reg call when I shoves on him yesterday after he opened with A7o when I shoved kings yesterday because I can only assume he thought his ace was good because I would 3bet a standard amount if I had a premium hand...... I levelled him, and ldo he made trip 7s ftw
(you can't judge my shove since I didn't give enough info btw. Ducwidt? )


I'll leave you with something to ponder.... Often just calling that three bet your opponent just made is worse of the fold/call/reraise option. Do you agree?

Last edited by OziBattler; 11-27-2012 at 02:14 AM.
How should I play the big slick (AK) and other big non pairs pre flop against a raise/re-raise? Quote
11-27-2012 , 02:24 AM
I'll post a hand in a live $100 Live STT that I won on Thanksgiving to give you an idea of what I mean to being vulnerable by flatting a reraise...

OR is UTG (~2500)
Hero is UTG+1 (~15000)
Vil is BB (~12000)

Seven Handed

Hero dealt AK

Blinds 100/200 Ante: 25


OR raises to 800
Hero reraises to 3000
Fold to BB
BB tanks, and flat calls
OR goes All-in for less

Flop: K105

BB Shoves for ~9000

By this time, I had about 90min worth of read on this guy (not a lot, I realize), and figured that he had one of two things:

1. He has AK for a split pot.
2. Much more likely, he has a lower pair like JJ/QQ, or even just a big ace with a straight draw like AQ/AJ.

I tank for about 45 seconds, and make the call figuring that my pair of kings is at worst up against a gutshot draw.

OR flips 99
Vil flips AQ

Turn comes a blank
River comes 9

Vil walked out of the door mumbling "Why do I always do this to myself... ?" while the table (donk regs) goes apey over my call.

I lost the main pot, but won a pretty sizeable side pot.

This was because I gained a good amount of information about my opponent in those short 90mins, and was therefore able to recognize his flat call preflop is what made my pair of Kings good post flop.

That is what I mean by "vulnerable to flatting preflop with a big ace."

Of course, your next vil might try to trap you with flatting a raise with a huge pair preflop, but that sort of play is usually WAY too fancy for low limits.
How should I play the big slick (AK) and other big non pairs pre flop against a raise/re-raise? Quote
11-27-2012 , 02:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OziBattler
Ak is way stronger than AceJack in many situations

Aceking can be a shove, acejack can be a fold to a 3bet....

Your question is very general, reads matter and what your opponents think if you matter. Eg I had a nitty reg call when I shoves on him yesterday after he opened with A7o when I shoved kings yesterday because I can only assume he thought his ace was good because I would 3bet a standard amount if I had a premium hand...... I levelled him, and ldo he made trip 7s ftw
(you can't judge my shove since I didn't give enough info btw. Ducwidt? )


I'll leave you with something to ponder.... Often just calling that three bet your opponent just made is worse of the fold/call/reraise option. Do you agree?
Definitely agree that calling is the worst of the three options. Depending on the opponent, either fold, or raise could be the best option.
How should I play the big slick (AK) and other big non pairs pre flop against a raise/re-raise? Quote
11-27-2012 , 12:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bingfa
I don't know how!!
change it to 2+2 forums format, copy/paste your hand in and hit convert. then copy paste it into your post. (might have misses something, it is quite easy though)

http://www.handconverter.com/

people will give you much more helpful advise if you have a certain situation
How should I play the big slick (AK) and other big non pairs pre flop against a raise/re-raise? Quote
11-27-2012 , 07:32 PM
^ Wrong. If you bet bet bet pre, you will end up all in vs KK/AA vs a lot of villains.
How should I play the big slick (AK) and other big non pairs pre flop against a raise/re-raise? Quote
11-27-2012 , 09:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bingfa
The title says it all basically.

Depending on if I have AK, AQ, AJ etc. what is the best continuation if I face a raise or if I myself raise and face a re-raise. I know this is a very general question. I'm mostly interested in pre-flop heads-up scenarios at a full ring table such as the following one.

I was out of position against a raiser and everyone folded, so it was just me and him. I had AKs so I re-raised him and in turn he re-raised me. I would not dare to go all-in here but I was thinking about re-raising yet again thinking "if he goes all-in I know he had aces and if he just calls he might have KK or less" but I just called. You probably notice from my poker reasoning that I'm a complete beginner

What are some general rules about raising, re-raising and calling with these Ace high cards pre flop?
Just throw it away. Seriously, AK is more often than not dominated in the early stages of a tournament facing 3bets, 4bets, 5bets etc. (I take it this is a sit n go?) Suited is a little better, but it's still only a drawing hand and likely dominated or at best a coin flip. Unless you've got a decent read on your opponent, it's not a hand you want to be raising and re-raising with early on.

Even QQ isn't worth playing with lots of raises early imo.

Last edited by MultiTabling; 11-27-2012 at 09:17 PM.
How should I play the big slick (AK) and other big non pairs pre flop against a raise/re-raise? Quote
11-27-2012 , 11:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MultiTabling
Just throw it away. Seriously, AK is more often than not dominated in the early stages of a tournament facing 3bets, 4bets, 5bets etc. (I take it this is a sit n go?) Suited is a little better, but it's still only a drawing hand and likely dominated or at best a coin flip. Unless you've got a decent read on your opponent, it's not a hand you want to be raising and re-raising with early on.

Even QQ isn't worth playing with lots of raises early imo.
There is a huge difference where positions are though.

He says he is out of position, this could mean he is utg vs utg+1 (in which case ur right) but if it is button vs BB I got no problem getting it in pre vs a random
How should I play the big slick (AK) and other big non pairs pre flop against a raise/re-raise? Quote
11-28-2012 , 07:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by peachfuzzle
That is what I mean by "vulnerable to flatting preflop with a big ace."

Of course, your next vil might try to trap you with flatting a raise with a huge pair preflop, but that sort of play is usually WAY too fancy for low limits.
A really helpful answer to my question! Its amazing how much I learnt so much from your first post and this example. Not only about this hand but how essential it is to have a read on a villain when playing certain hands. For sure this is going to save me a lot of money and anguish about losing big pots. Now know what information I need to play this hand.

Without your read would you have folded with TPTK then?
How should I play the big slick (AK) and other big non pairs pre flop against a raise/re-raise? Quote
11-28-2012 , 08:48 AM
What is the play here?

lowest stakes rush poker
no stats on anyone
hero and villain 100bb

hero raises 3bb from ep with ak
villain reraises to 9bb from co
everyone folds

what if the villain is mid position?
what if we are button, villian bb?
How should I play the big slick (AK) and other big non pairs pre flop against a raise/re-raise? Quote
12-11-2012 , 10:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by artisan
What is the play here?

lowest stakes rush poker
no stats on anyone
hero and villain 100bb

hero raises 3bb from ep with ak
villain reraises to 9bb from co
everyone folds

what if the villain is mid position?
what if we are button, villian bb?
Would like an answer to this too.
How should I play the big slick (AK) and other big non pairs pre flop against a raise/re-raise? Quote
12-11-2012 , 11:30 PM
AK is a monster, if you play tournaments and face re re - raise PUSH ALL IN !
How should I play the big slick (AK) and other big non pairs pre flop against a raise/re-raise? Quote
12-12-2012 , 12:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Angelov
AK is a monster, if you play tournaments and face re re - raise PUSH ALL IN !
Not in the early phases of tournaments, generally. It's dominated by AA and KK and a coin flip against other pocket pairs. Early phase of a sit n go especially, never go all-in with AK. Sure-fire way to lose in the long run.
How should I play the big slick (AK) and other big non pairs pre flop against a raise/re-raise? Quote
12-18-2012 , 11:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MultiTabling
Not in the early phases of tournaments, generally. It's dominated by AA and KK and a coin flip against other pocket pairs. Early phase of a sit n go especially, never go all-in with AK. Sure-fire way to lose in the long run.

What about cash?
How should I play the big slick (AK) and other big non pairs pre flop against a raise/re-raise? Quote

      
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