Maybe I am defining myself with this question, but how do I play against stupid people? I mean, it is one thing to be a calling station, but against the most calling of calling stations, how do I play? I have found consistently that when I play at a casino, online or at some other live poker facility, I do well - I place in the money roughly 50% of the time. However, when I play with friends or novices, I get my butt handed to me. It is one thing to make value bets, and it is another to make such bets against someone who will call all the way to the river only to hit two pair with a 2 because they're calling my bets with a 10-2 in the hole against a QJT flop when I have AJ. And I watch these players make the same bad bets again and again, even when I am not in the hand, and they come out on top. Granted, bad beats will happen, and I accept that. But it seems that my play, which is based on strategy, works against me in almost every game.

Am I just in an unlucky streak, or am I doing something wrong? I'm to the point of feeling that I should just avoid those games altogether, because I end up losing money.

FYP.

Seriously, you must realise that players like this are pretty much ideal opponents. If they want to take crappy odds, make sure you give them the chance to do so every opportunity you get. Sure, some of the suck-outs will make your eyes water. But in the long run you're going to win a ton of cash off these sorts of players.

Good Luck.

I have experienced this as well and there are some adjustments you can make.

limp more often, play post flop poker (forget the preflop plays). raise strong hands only.

bet the nuts HARD. try to get them to commit at least half to all of their stack. if u can't take em out at least cripple them.

bluff less. fold more on the flop if any resistance shown.

make ur moves when the blinds go up (if ur in a tourney format) where mistakes 'cost' more.

of course they may still runner runner u and send u packing. say NH and sign up to the next event

What idiot would play 10 2 - they will never win the WSOP playing with that hand.

I think some players when they play friends/family let their ego get in the way. They know they are better players and want to show it - perhaps you are one of these. Playing with idiots is so profitable in the long run but expect big variance and lots of suck outs. That goes with the territory I'm afraid.

bleah, I've seen T2, K2, J2, K6, K5... you name it, those are just the hands that beat me last week.

My leak in that game is over-relying on TPTK. Fixed.

value bet, value bet, and value bet some more, and then next time your in a hand with them make sure ur value bets are bigger than last time as u realised u missed out on value last time by only bettin 2x size of the pot, when u could have bet 200 into that 25 pot, and still got a caller.

seriosuly tho, this must be a great game to play in, as long as u dont let ur ego get in the way and stick to ur solid strategy.

I don't like this advice at all. You need to never limp because youre not making them pay for mistakes doing that and you'll find yourself in tough spots too often. What you need to do is value bet youre strong hands and not c-bet as often since it's so likely to get called.

Rest of this posters advice is pretty good though

It doesn't have to do with some poker strategy, it's just emotionally frustrating. Yeah, value bet, but when your mind is clear. Have TT on the B, raise and the BB calls, flop 472, he checks, you bet 3/4 of the pot, he calls, turn 9, he minbets, you 3bet, he calls, river is a Q, you check, he bets 1/3 of the pot.... if u call, he shows Q3'o. If you go on a stupid bluff and put him allin, he calls. So classy!
Summa summarum: value bet, but play more passive when are faced with these calling monkeys. Some tables are running like LH, with action on flop over 50%. Value bet 2 pairs, sets, fulls, etc. Stop losing money with A high and one pair...

Yeah, I think this is my problem, though I think I do not overplay due to ego as much as underplay. Their play results in some very big pots (which I often have the sense not to be in with bad hands) which in turn results in players having very big stacks early on. Then I start playing to "not embarrass myself" instead of playing to win, because playing to win but losing anyway will hurt my ego. However, by playing to not embarrass myself I think I accomplish it anyway. It just takes more time for me to get there.

plus that on a 30K string of hands, you should crush these players.

I don't know why you magically end up out of position on the river and why your turn raise is suddenly a 3bet in your example but not betting yourself on the river is beyond terrible. You're seriously losing so so so much value not betting that river it's sick.

Anyway your hand example is beyond standard and anybody not betting all 3 streets while trying really hard not to jump up and do a little jig should give up poker.

If you reversed the order of the cards and made it Q92 - 4 - 7 it would be a far better example of where you might try and get 3 streets of value with TT against these players.

First, ignore the post that says limp with a lot of hands and outplay them postflop. You basically want to do the exact opposite. Be very patient, wait for premium hands, and play them very strongly.

Second, in the example you gave you're betting Middle Pair...? What's to stop the guy from having Q2 instead of T2??.

Third, In Hold'em (as opposed to Omaha, for example), there is an effect called schooling, where bad players make calls that end up not being AS bad as you might think because the amount of callers in the hand gives them decent odds. As a result, when you have your premium hands, you really need to be betting even more than you think.

I've noticed that a lot of online players have learned to bet the right amounts in online play, but make terrible bet sizes in live poker.

Here is an example that I probably saw 40 times last night in a three hour session:

1-3 NL

UTG+1 raises to 12.

5 callers.

Total pot = 60

Flop comes and they bet 15 or maybe 20...?? Betting 1/4 or 1/3 of the pot here is not acceptable if you have something like TPTK. They end up getting like 3-4 callers and wonder why they get drawn out on.

So YES there are terrible players out there, but sometimes there terrible calls aren't exactly as bad as you think that they are.

Ya ,I here ya buddy.I'm pretty much in the same boat as you are.Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one who knows what there doing,but yet the donkey manages to get the best of me.I think Copag man's anology is a pretty good one.Limp into pots,play aggresive post flop,and play your A game.This is a hard one to figure out,but I think the more you play with these types of donks,you will get a better understanding and you can adjust your game.

never limp in the pot
you give them cheap price to play trash.

LOL... I'm pretty sure playing that hand is a guaranteed win... twice.

OP:
This is a situation where you have to adjust to their playing style, what works at one level doesn't work in another. It sounds like your opponents are new and unaware, and since it's a tournament (you mentioned placing in the money), the blinds could be escalating quickly to force you to make moves, so be selectively aggressive. Most of the advice so far is good, just keep in mind that they see their hole cards and the board, not much more. Keep it simple, no fancy play, so raise PF with good hands, value bet made hands, call if odds to draw to big hands are offered, and do not bluff.

If the table was very tight, you could play loose and raise to steal, but this situation is the opposite. Be patient and play your premium hands hard and fast, if they're calling down with middle or bottom pair. Do not fall into the trap of playing their style to prove something or make up for lost hands. Sure, sometimes villian will have a big hand too, but you'll more than make up for that by taking down more pots when you're in them.

GL,
T

Maybe your problem is you aren't listening to the advice given here... Just a thought.

Well, not exactly correct when you're talking about a bunch of calling stations, as poster describes.

When you have a table full of callers/limpers/minraisers, this is when you get your speculative hands in. Suited aces and kings go in, suited connectors go in, just about any pocket pair goes in.

If you are getting between 5:1 and 10:1 odds and hit a flush draw with your A5s, you are getting big odds to keep going. At this kind of table, not getting in hands which could hit a set, straight or flush is like ignoring money laying on the sidewalk.

Funny thread. Inexperienced poster (who are inexperienced players perhaps), comes asking for advice.

Two types given:

1. Experienced posters suggest playing strong hands a bit harder, limping less, bluffing less and reducing your opponents chances to draw out on you.

2. Inexperienced posters "come over the top" saying limp-limp-limp until you hit.

Experienced posters are not whinging about losing. Inexperienced posters are.

Simple math (in my view).

even more simple math: if you can't beat an idiot, what are you?

1) you're doing something wrong: you're an idiot too (maybe worse)
2) you always make the correct play but you get sucked out time after time: God doesn't like you when it comes to luck, consider playing chess

most of the time I'm in the first group, but I'm smart enough not to call the people I lose from idiots, it's a bit degrading (to yourself)

It's a bad streak. And it sucks because you can't beat a calling station with out the best hand. Just stick to your game, play the best you can. The key to maxamizing against stations is to get the most money in you can when ahead, if they suck out, so be it. Luck evens out. Don't c-bet too much with air.

All the more support to my thoughts that either I should just not play in these games at all because I can't handle/manage the variance, or I should just not expect anything out of these games. Again, when I play with people who are serious about their game, I can compete and do well. Maybe I am an idiot for making bad decisions on which games I get involved in.

I'm sorry to be blunt but this is ludicrous.

If you're agreed that calling stations are fundamentally bad players, why on earth would you turn down the chance to play against them in order to go off and play against people who are better at the game?

Sure, variance sucks, but it is only variance, and provided you're adequately bankrolled, and emotionally able to see it for what it is, it shouldn't be a big problem. Big difference between variance, due to fish getting on a lucky streak, and long term losses due to being outplayed by better players.

Good Luck.

Move up to where they respect your raises (the old ones are the best)

Not for the first time, Rek puts it much better than I could.
Nice one, Rek.

I certainly wouldn't say that DD. But I am betting looking than you