Recently I've been having alot of trouble with some loose players who have like 60+ VPIP and are very aggressive, I can't steal blinds because they call almost all raises and they bet really aggressively. Any tips on playing against these kind of players?

Sometimes I challenge them with a mediocre~good hand and when it comes to showdown I lose most of the time or fold halfway as they raise quite high on the flop and turn and I am afraid. I can't get a good read on them at all they play even really garbage hands.

I feel as though I'm taking a huge risk when I challenge them with little reward.

Pretty much just have to be ready to ride the Variance train with these guys and crank it pre-flop with TT+ Premiums and don't be afraid to take them to value town with TPGK.

Yeah its a huge pain as you can never get a read on them and they will ocassionally beat you with Q3 2 pair or something stupid, but not much you can do about that

The few at my local casino are usually easy to read once you play with them awhile and catch onto habits (one regular maniac calls every raise pre to "see a flop" would always "min raise" 2pair+ and simply Jam draws. Try to look for things like that to exploit.

Ride the variance train.... cool. Thanks for the advice man. I have another question though and this is a problem.

I normally lose my first buy-in on micro stakes because I bet too strong before winning it back later, is that normal?? I really want to stop doing that.

it's never a pain to play fish and anybody that has a VPIP of 40+ over a decent sample (you only need around 50-60 hands for VP to converge with reasonable accuracy) is a fish. Stop thinking like this and start thinking ..."where do I find such players".

By hard to read you mean hard to put on a range because they are so wide...this is true, but also insignificant. You don't need to "read" fish, except in a very basic sense. You play patiently, wait to you've got a decent (ish) hand and then take them to value town. Every now and again you will hit the top of their very wide range or suck out on you...that's poker, if you can't deal with that, quit.

If they are wide and aggro that's about as perfect as you can get. Fish aggrotards are a delight, because you don't have to hand read or build a pot...they do it all for you.

tl/dr beating loose fish = patience, position and value betting made hands.

till you get the idea, buyin shorter so you can push on them and have rebuys.

Agree with Fatboy, yeah you can't 'get a read on them' in the sense that you can't put them on a narrow range but you can sure as hell get an idea of their hand strength by the way they play.

It's much more profitable to play a villain who could literally have ATC but is a passive fish than say be calling a 3bet from a guy you can narrow down to exactly JJ+/AK. Putting villains on a range is a key skill in poker but it's not a tool you need for these guys.

I recently made a thread about this phenomenon. I think it has to be a trend that will die out rather than sooner. I mean, if you see it time and again as it happens now at the micros, eventually people get annoyed and they'll encounter resistance, turning their aggro 3-betting into an unprofitable lottery.

Some players are actually doing it in a kind of smart way. The assumption obviously is that they raise something ridiculous like x5 because they just want you to fold instead of engaging in an absurd war of weak hands. So with that in mind, you'd want to shove or 4-bet as long as you have something like 10+, they probably fold, end of the story. Now some of them do that only when they have AA, hoping that you are going to reason that way. I discovered that stacking my KK against one of them.

I think the best strategy is wait for a pair and call them all the way.

Honestly I don't think is that easy. The problem here is assimetry of information. The game is known to both: one pushes until the other folds. This means is not possible to get a read on the aggro because he is just pushing and pushing regardless of his cards. When he has nothing at all he can suddenly fold and you don't get any more money. However when he has something he will continue to showdown and you'll keep calling because you don't put him on much of a hand or your pot odds are too good to fold. Over the long term this assimetry can be very profitable for him.

These are also not the typical loose player, they take it to the extreme and typically raise something like 20, 40 BB preflop and bet the pot on the flop.


Also, I found this video with some advice from Phil Galfond on this topic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3VU...utu.be&t=5m30s

They definitely don't win in the long run but the problem is when they are at the table 70% of the time you get involved in a hand they are gonna be challenging you and betting strong.

They win a bit at the start but they lose a chunk of it to nits who hit on the flop later.
The problem is someone normally get the opportunity before you do and when they are on the table it really slows down your play.

You guys are levelling yourselves. This is basic, beginners stuff.

Learn to find fish.
Learn to identify fish.
Learn to stack fish.

NLHE doesn't get any easier than this...it just gets harder.

Sure there maybe some great really wide aggro players out there...but they don't play microstakes.

LOL, just LOL @ this post.

There is no asymmetry of information, you are talking out of your arse. You do know what his range is, it's weak. Against a guy who raises big preflop and then bombs the flop and jams the turn with junky hands, you just make a TP type hand and call him down. That's it.

What you do need to know, is that this is a high variance situation, these guys can and will suck out on you or show up with the top of their range or whatever. There are no guaranteed victories in poker. However, reckless maniacs are by far the best players to have at your table i.e. they are the most profitable. You should pray for these guys to turn up and donate.

This is really true.

It's the fact that people don't know how to adjust and feel like they are getting exploited as they are beting put in a situation all the time where they feel like they should be printing money because that person is bad.

Abusing aggrofish is like the first adjustment you should learn to make from your default plan which for most people starting off is playing tight and exploiting all the weak passive fish.

These two points are very very important.

That guy open shoving every 2nd hand will show up with AA, your call with TT was still great.


edit - this doesn't really help OP in the way he wants, although it is helpful, if you wan tto post more specific examples I'll happily give my 2c.

to answer part of the op. you dont need to steal blinds when one of these is in the game. he is putting basically many times the blind money in the pot each hand. so those that step up to the plate gets to eat the steak.

It's a lot easier to play these guys if you have position on them. There's no shame in quitting a table if an aggrodonk is on your left, as although it's always profitable to have a lunatic at your table, the biggest beneficiaries of his looseness and aggression will be the players to his left.
Go find another table, or come back when a better seat opens up.

its still a pain, theres a super aggro recreational that overbets at me constantly (90ats/70BBcall/20 3bet/3 agg). He loves me and I'm up 1.6k lifetime vs him at 60/100 turbos (he been playing me for past 3 months.) still hate when he plays me because any given hour he could go on a huge run.

I like making money, but as a game plan being able to bluff and being able to play properly sized pots with 2nd pair/ace high is fun and these guys straight up do not let you

I suppose relative skill levels are important to provide context to the discussion. It's always going to be challenging to play a super aggressive player who you don't have a big edge over.

even if you have a massive edge its challenging for many people, riding the varience train is not fun for some

OK but that's something you just have to deal with if you want to be good at poker. If you're playing for ****s and giggles, it doesn't matter, you can simply pass up hugely +EV spots if they distress you.

its and opportunity to make money. but you may have to change your game against him and when others are in the pot.

also if a lunatic is on your left and he is already in the game buy in for less and you can limp raise or move in on him.