Currently 20-tabling NL5 and building up my roll at a decent rate. Grinded 80$ in 5 hours last night, 50-60$ tonight in the same timeframe even though I folded pocket aces preflop twice to timeout... im happy with these results and think i can keep them up, but obviously i dont want to stay at such low stakes.

Played NL10 for a day but had a terrible losing streak and gave it up, so I'm thinking of moving up straight to NL25 when I hit a 1000$ roll. Have only played it on full tilt before, and not for long. Is it much harder than NL5? Is it as stupidly unpredictable as NL10?

I can only speak for 6-max.

No, it's not much harder than $5NL or even $10NL - but there are some subtle adjustments you should probably make along the way to maximize your winrate. The donks at $25NL are plentiful as with the lower stakes - they're a little better so your standards should be a little bit higher. Other than that, it's a bit tighter, so you'll probably have less 5-6 way pots.

It's not the game to get carried away with 3-bets and second barrels, however - the play is still pretty bad and there are still more calling stations than not. Actually, coming right in don't change anything right away - play 5-10K to get adjusted and make your modifications slowly.

And I'm not a bankroll expert - but unless you're a near break even player, you don't need anywhere near $1,000 to play $25 NL. Seriously.

My real recommendation is that you don't skip $10 NL - give it a 20K hand college try and enjoy the journey - it's kind of a nice transition level.

It doesn't matter how good you are, if you cant beat NL10 then you can't beat NL25. If myself play NL25 6-max, and when i moved up from NL10, i noticed a definite difference in the amount of regulars, the amount of tighter players, and in general, the standard of play. NL25 is tougher than NL10, so move up to NL10 first.

To put this way for you, how stupid would it be for some high stakes player to say 'Dam, i am a huge winner at NL 5/10, but cant beat 10/20..... Why not just move straight up to NL5000?'

I may give NL10 another shot but I'm not convinced that it would be easier for me to beat than NL25. In my limited experience, it's full of shortstacking hit and run players. They join with 3 or 4 dollars, go all-in to steal a $1.60 pot and just leave the table before anybody can figure them out. Dunno how I'm supposed to deal with that. For some reason NL5 plays a lot better even though the stack sizes are similar.

From what I've seen, I can't possibly beat NL10 in the same way I beat NL5. I can hardly justify playing a game where the reward (stack sizes) is the same, but the difficulty level is higher mainly due to a higher rate of shortstacking clowns playing.

On Full Tilt I was holding my own at NL25. I'm not too scared of it, was just hoping to pick up some feedback before I give it a shot.

As for the bankroll... its just a matter of comfort. i beat NL5 easy enough that i dont mind spending a few more weeks to get my roll up from 400 to 1000, just so I can play NL25 without being scared of losing a few buyins.

Don't play 20 tables. Play 4 and learn rather than play as many hands as possible. I've been at this NL cash ~3 months. Started at $10NL through $25NL now at $50NL took me about 60k hands and yesterday hit a run and I'm rolled for $100. But I'll probably be at $50 for at least this month. I never play more than 6 tables and usually 4, I feel this is a good number as you cam focus on every decision. Maybe you should try playing less tables?

I will tell you a short life story: I have been strugling (dont know how is spelled) with NL10 a long time. Just dont know why, but when I take it in to my head, really started improving my game with training site, here, etc. I break it yesterday with 4PTBB/100 on 52k sample size mostly 6 table. I can 12 table NL10 now and show profit. I always think that I am capable of breaking NL25 and not breaking NL10 but that was so not true ... Been once earlier on NL25 which bringed me a nice profit in one day, and a huge downswing on second day. So I grinded NL10 again. Now I am on 600$ and currently I am 5BI minus on NL25 (6k sample) but was on 800$ yesterday (have a lot of doom switches ), but thats another story. For your own good: BEAT LIMIT AFTER LIMIT AND MOVE UP ! (Beating doesnt mean you have 20PTBB/100 on your 5k hand sample !)

what makes you think you wont get the same shortstackers at NL25? I play on stars and short stackers are a way of life. youve got to deal with it. FWIW anecdotally there may be less shortstacks (im talking about people who buy in min, not those who buy in for default) at 6max and you get more chances to get HU with bad players. 6max is more profitable than FR imo IF you play well.

Also you want to play against bad players, they are your ATM but if you dont adjust then you wont profit as much. eg if theres a guy who never folds, then dont bluff him, if you do you are probably making a bad play.

also you might need to make some adjustments because these games are beatable. I would advise against jumping straight to NL25.....playing higher than a limit you cant beat is a recipe to busto. Instead, stop playing so many tables, get better reads, get better at poker (your probably just grinding out hands instead of playing better at fewer tables) and youll be able to beat NL10.

btw timing out twice alone with aces is a clear indication you are playing too many tables and that will hurt your bottom line. I do suspect you are riding the absolute maximum of tables you can play and are probably just clicking buttons like mad ... seriously, slow down on the multitables

to OP, for clarification....my post above wasnt intended to be totally attacking but it was intended to be blunt and to the point. heres the thing, there are certain intrinsic advantages of playing shortstacked and if the shortstacker plays well you may often find yourself in coinflips with them ... however many shortstackers arent playing their shortstack well and thus are very beatable (eg theyll get all in with A7o v your QQ etc etc) but if you keep hammering way with the same raise sizes (pre and postflop) and dont adjust when a shortstacker is in the pot or probably will enter the pot then your not doing it quite right

one way to learn to combat shortstackers is to do your research and learn how they might be trying to play.....this will help you learn to beat them

goodluck

ps also your SN of WorldsUnluckiest portrays a negative mindset which you probably dont need re-enforced whenever you login....

What would be a good BB/100 at NL10, to move to NL25, lets say over 25K hands?
By BB/100 I mean big blinds/100, not big bets.

Opinions vary widely on this subject and there is no correct answer, but I'd say if you're pulling anywhere from 4-5 and have the bankroll you can move up safely, with the caveat of dropping back down if things go awry.

My PT database shows me with a winrate of 5.61PTBB/100 over 26K - not great and not a huge sample size but it also includes two 6 BI downswings.

A good player could easily sustain 10 or more at $10NL, IMO.

Regarding your comment about NL10 being full of shortstackers, there are lots of shortstackers at every level. This is one of the reasons why table selection is so important and get even more important as you move up.

I will also join the ranks of those who are telling you that if you can't beat NL10, don't go to NL25. Everytime you go up a level, you will find a few more regs and the "good" players at this level will be a bit more aggressive. As Alan N. Schoonmaker repeats over and over again in his books "The worst ennemy of a poker player is denial". If you can't beat NL10 don't pretend to yourself that you'll be just fine at NL25.

Also remember that moving up from NL5 might require small changes to your approach since NL5 is 250 BB deep while NL10 and up are 100BB deep.

Excellent responses.

lots of good posts here. nothing to add myself but lots of stuff here will help me. thanks guys

Can't help thinking that's a bad idea.

Are you going to 20 table NL25 with a 1k bankroll? you'd have half your bankroll in play at any one time

no sh*t, i can get nervous 4 tabling 25nl with a just over $500 roll.

No

NL5 is easy to 20 table for me... it just so happened that over a 5 hour period, 2 of the 6 hands or so that timed out were aces, but as long as I'm focused, timeouts will never happen.

If I move up I'll start with like 6 tables... same thing I did with NL5

I appreciate the input and will take it into consideration. Giving NL10 another shot tonight.