When i started playing live in 08 the tables were full of loose passive players and I played a tight style (more weak than aggressive, as I was a beginner with scared money) and made a modest profit betting for value against my opponents.
After a longish break from the game I returned to playing 1/2 where I live in Bangkok (an underground game) a couple of months ago.
As before, many hands go to showdown, so bluffing opportunities are limited, and many flops are multiway, because of overcalling. On the other hand there are no loose/gambling type players. Most are nits, and it's the better, tight aggressive players who are a bit looser preflop with overcalls and the rare 3 bet. A lot of checking through on wet flops, a lot of check calls on turns and bet/calls on rivers.
My question is - what is the best (most exploitative) style of play against these apparently contradictory tendencies - mix of nits and TAGs? If I play LAG I risk building big pots and having to rely on bluff shoving rivers to get them to fold (very high variance, and easily exploited imo). On the other hand it would be hard to play tighter than the average reg in these games unless i play only JJ+ AKs.
Sorry for the long post - but any feedback would be most welcome.
Do you play online at all? I can't speak for live,but, I'm sure it's applicable: if u can be aggro enough to piss one off and make him spazz out. Controlled agression like 3betting nonstop, but folding when he repops unless u got the goods. Hopefully they over adjust. Also, set mining And seeing cheap flops with sc, and when u Bink hopefully they pay off with an op. They may b tight pf but over value hands postflop. Doesn't always work, but, it's like trying to get play from a turtle
Depending on the rake, a game where half the players are nits and the other half knows what they’re doing, is going to be hard to beat unless you join the second group and eventually become an above average member.
The only reason why OK-ish players are able to win in games with a couple good players is that the other players at the table lose enough. If those other players are nits, chances are they won’t lose enough to support more than the best 2-3 players + rake.
If you play in a game and realize there’s a couple players stronger than you and all the weaker players play a style that controls their losses, that’s probably not the right game for you.
fold more when they bet, play more aggressively in pots against them (if you are heads up and you are first to act you should bet quite liberally, including semi bluffs or marginal made hands)
@Kelvis, that is my point - I am still trying to work out this contradiction. Hands rarely go HU to the flop, but on the other hand there are plenty of times when the blinds chop.
A typical scenario is when someone raises in MP or LP and then there are 3 or 4 callers that follow. (3 bets are rare). A flop bet will usually get the pot HU on the turn, but then it goes to showdown most of the time. Despite the overcalling, ranges are tight enough preflop for a couple of players to continue with value post flop. Possibly some villains are overvaluing their hands on turn and river, but one player often 'has it'.
So my question is really should i be trying to barrel these players off their TPGK hands (I have done this a few times on the river - but i feel that the better players are already calling me down light) or should I be playing somewhere between the nits and the TAGs in terms of ranges in order to grind out a small win?
If an MP raise get 3 or 4 callers they can't all have good hands, however it's likely one of them will hit something on the flop and stick with it. Basically they play a wide range preflop and then you're up against the field that is passive but will get to the river often. This means you have little fold equity preflop or postflop but you can get value from hands preflop and realize your equity more often. The nasty thing is that playing passive is sort of the correct way to play multiway pots so you can't go all out bluffing and barreling like a maniac.
The counter would be to exploit their passiveness by playing tight preflop and play especially hands that make strong pair hands like AK and suited broadways. You won't get 3bet often to punish you and you get to see turns and rivers to make pairs a lot, realizing your equity. Low pocket pairs are fun when you get big pots postflop, but that doesn't happen. AK becomes significantly better when it gets to see many cards and few bets go in. When you hit just put one or two bets in and fold when they ever raise. They can't setmine against that and they would need to start bluffing or play aggressively to combat it.
It's ****ing boring and honestly it's not much use to stay on the table but if you're going to this is probably the best way.
Good stuff from madlex and Kelvis so far. Typically the best avenue to poker profit is to play opposite the masses (if you're capable and your BR can afford it). Sounds as if you are in a game where you constantly need to be aware of your position and who remains in the hand.
I don't care what low limit game you play, there's always an opening bet that will thin the field and you need to find it. It may change from night to night so that's important as well.
Expanding your 3-bet range (if comfortable) is necessary and watch your sizing taking both calling odds and stack sizes into consideration. Remember that once the first Player calls the other opponent's odds get that much better so you probably need to bump it up a bit, especially OOP. Take careful consideration to which type of Player opened ... everyone has a range.
You may need to consider calling these limpers by a different name (OMC?) and not Nit. 'My' Nits typically don't play very many hands and have a small range, and they love to limp/raise (not limp/call) from EP. 'My' OMC Players want to limp 'every' hand (at a discount) and then typically overplay when they hit. What you need to watch out for is the 'worst' .. The OMC CS. These Players 'are' your profit center, but you better have a hand at Showdown since they never fold.
Aggression ... by steadily increasing your opening bet size with rampped up 3-betting frequency will garner you the 'PIA' label. You will need to sense when this happens and then tighten up your game since they will now go into trap mode. GL
Even if the game isn’t half full of nits but guys who play loose passive preflop and fit-or-fold postflop, you want to be at least the third best player at the table to be able to win money. At least in your standard 9-handed 1/2 game with 10% rake capped at $5.
In that kind of game, a good rule of thumb is that one full buy-in in rake and tips leaves the table every 1.5 hours. That equals two bad players losing at 100bb/100. If the game doesn’t have any really bad players but only those lose-passive pre, fit-or-fold post guys, we might estimate they lose at 50bb/100 which means we need 4 of them in our game just to pay rake and tips. That means unless we’re at least the third best of the remaining 5 somewhat competent players, we’re most likely losing in the game.
Whether they are loose or tight, one way to exploit passive players is to fold more often when they take aggressive action. Or to just flat more often preflop with hands like QQ and AK instead of 3betting.
I'd lean towards making some small pot-building raises that won't get anyone to fold with hands that play very well multi-way.
