Surprised so many players want you to call preflop a 5x raise with J9 suited after a caller. I think this whole thread could have been avoided if you simply folded pre. As played, well, you got your flush. What more can you ask for?

But this is why I fold pre. Because you are stacked anyway. I don't actually think calling preflop is necessary or appropriate here, although it might be something to try for fun once in a while.

NLAP (great UN btw)

For a guy that opened with "don't play like a passive fish" you seem a little precious.

I'm not folding J9s in multiway pot with fish in it to a single raise unless I see a three bet coming behind me, IP or OOP. Plenty agree, some don't...that's poker.

Didn't give any credit to anyone...didn't read any posts apart from yours and ops before replying. but yeah, I would give way more credit to someone I know beats 50nl over someones who claims to crush live...i'm a sceptic see.

Is "NH WP, it's a cooler" more or less relevant than "you played like a passive fish"...I dunno... bit less "full of it" tho, don't you think?

Im not talking about balanced strategies just theres a ton of reasons why calling with this hand is good. a. it has good sdvalue but not great vs a stacking off range. b. protection is unimportant we have 85%+ equity vs random hands that would fold to a c/r. c.we have implied odds vs better hands.

basically I don't want to turn this hugely profitable situation into a flip, the chance that this live guy stacks off with a worse jack is minimal given he raised preflop. The fact that in a balanced range this hand protects your weak jacks is just a bonus.

I understand want you are saying about live opposition, last week I stacked a guy on akjj for 250 blinds while he held qq. However I don't think you can just use that as an excuse to shove money into a pot with top pair mid kicker and think its an amazing spot, because its just not even a really bad player recognizes that you can't stack off super light in a 4 way pot.

We must have different experiences with live whales which is what I'm putting the difference of opinion down to. I have come across plenty that would stack off with top pair no kicker in this spot, some even less as they put us on a bluff every time. I've had guys call me down for 250bb stacks with bottom pair!?! no draw in a 3/3 game. Against the range of your average 1/2 fish we are miles ahead. IP I take a far more passive line as we have all the options available to us. OOP I'm happy to get it in as a favourite and not let vil get away if suddenly the board turns scary.

Edit: jamming the flop also avoids the really ugly spot where we c/c the flop and turn (assuming no flush) and then face a river shove from a total fish while we hold top pair and have roughly 90 behind (assuming standard stacks and bets) with an approx 240 pot. Our greatest equity is on the flop which is where I'd prefer getting my $ in.

And no idea why OP didn't c/r turn to get it in when he hit, or lead for that matter

I play like that from time to time as well....when I'm on tilt. Saying that you will call raises OOP with J9 sooted just because a fish raises is a clear indication that you aren't fully thinking through your decision. I don't know any 1/2, 1/3, 2/5, or 5/10 crusher that plays like this. Next time you are at your local casino observe the plethora of pots that go multiway and then take note of how seldomly the crushing players are calling in these spots.

This doesn't seem to jive since your initial post stated "seems other agree." Regardless, I'm not saying there is anything wrong with playing 50NL. I used to play 50NL myself once upon a time but I do feel my live experience is far more relevant to a live low stakes question like this. By the same token, a 50NL grinder's experience is far more relevant than mine when confronted with an online hand given that I haven't played much online since Black Friday.

He displayed some very common leaks in this hand which if corrected will make him a far better player.

A standard strong winner in a live game will fist pump play in a hang against a fully stacked whale with J9s.

To that point I've even had a player call all in on the turn with an underpair (22) vs my pair and a flush draw with exactly 1 out to win the pot (that was a 2/5 game)

The whale is playing every hand. We will have plenty of opportunities to play pots with him (seat change please). I mainly play LAG so I play a lot of pots with these fish but that doesn't mean we shouldn't justify our calls mathematically (nor does it mean we should compromise solid fundamentals)...ie if a whale 7x's it I'm sure you would agree that we shouldn't call pre from the SB with J9sooted 100bbs effective just to play pots with the whale even with 2 other callers in the hand. Most people wrongly assume a call in that spot is standard winning poker.

Whale made it 5x, not 7x. Multi-way I'm calling that every single time especially with a whale in the pot.

Yes I realize that. Whale also has an stack size of $X so it's impossible to make the decision. I already stated that I would call if effective stacks are sufficient.

When you call you are still mainly targeting the preflop raiser, and as such a whale simply being in the pot should be less enticing than the situation we have here which is the whale being the preflop raiser. For instance if a crushing player raises it and the whale calls (which naturally we expect in every hand) we should be far less apt to play in that pot than we are in a situation like this where the whale is the preflop raiser.

Let's have an example. If he's a whale of the type that is not going to fold AT ALL postflop, and the bb isn't an aggro squeezer, we should call any two, yes?

I can respect what you're saying i guess the danger to this style of micromanaging your decisions is that you fold this flush to his two pair out of a state of over thought out paranoia. But by all means if you have the skills and reads to get out of this then all the power to you but my hunch tells me folding here will long term do you more harm than good

Oh stfu jeez

Very good point. It probably does take a certain amount of experience to effectively narrow down a villain's range in certain spots. As several other posts have eluded, when you're not sure whether to call/fold vs a fish/whale it's generally best to put your money in the middle. (and the opposite vs live grinders, if you aren't sure whether the proper decision is to call or fold you should probably fold). We'd rather use analysis to make an optimal decision but in spots where we can't come to a decision I think that is a good rule of thumb.

(for clarification purposes, I'm not saying to fold this particular hand but in general there are similar spots where we can fold strong hands such as flushes or even full houses depending on how the action played out).

I did say he had his moments where he'd get aggressive...

I for 1 appreciate your contributions to this thread. Care to share any history of players 5x'ing in the online tournaments you play?

I saw that you posted that he gets aggressive with his Ace high. I didn't know if you meant he raises with Ace high pre (wasn't particular clear as to what his preflop raising range was) or if he is actually barreling multiple streets with Ace high. I also wasn't sure if you were being results oriented because he had Ace high in this hand.

Unfortunately his line on all streets seems perfect. Albeit, we don't know the bet sizes on any of the streets which are critical pieces of information when we are trying deconstruct a hand.

Sorry I missed this piece of information: "Plus he has occasionally bet out on the turn or the river to steal pots where I called with a bluff-catcher " - I wouldn't expect many big multi-street bluffs at this level from anyone except maniacs (or bad/tilted thinking aggro players maybe). That doesn't mean you should fold though. A bad player could very well be betting worse for value (perhaps much much worse). Also, the amounts bet are relevant. For instance if you saw him bet $30 on the turn as a bluff that would be a lot different than a $200 river bet.

So for clarity for those who asked.

Stack size were 200bb vs. the whale. At the time I had 300bb. The other 2 callers had less than V and folded the flop.

Also for clarity - there were two raisers pre - that made the pot 32, giving me just a bit better than 3:1 (7:2 to be precise).

As for the passive play on my part - yes I characterized the guy as a passive whale and that is true - he called EVERY hand. He couldn't not see a flop. (Exception: he'd fold to 3 bets and all-ins pre occasionally) I've been working lately on reading players and learning their play - picking one player and focusing on them to learn their habits so as to develop the skill ... and since I'd played with this guy before I decided that he'd be my focus. (I am almost able to track two in my head now and the other whale was the other guy I was paying attention to but not as much as this one.)

So anyway - yes a whale but he also had some aggression in him - he had shown himself willing to bluff and bet his draws, and particularly he'd tend to get aggressive if the opponent was showing weakness. In a previous spot with KJ OOP on a KTT board where he'd raised pre I called his flop c-bet and his turn bet and was prepared to x/f the river but he checked behind and I was good.

Pre-flop I think x/c is perfectly natural here. I had TPMKFD - I don't need to stack off for that, but I'm not crediting his c-bet with much either. The other two callers folded so when the turn came I decided to see if he'd be aggressive again, and he was.

At the river he had about 80bb left and was pot committed - so again I checked expecting him to shove, which he did.

OFC I now know had I shoved the river he'd have called anyway but the more I read the responses the more I think that ultimately I did just run into a cooler with this guy. Suited ace was certainly in his range here, but at the same time his range was still wide enough given his prior bluffing plays that I think even if I thought he had it, I'd have had to call it down.

Thanks for the added info. Preflop is fine because of this: "Stack size were 200bb vs. the whale" which is far more relevant than this: "giving me just a bit better than 3:1"

Still, your passive play on the turn/river is definitely suboptimal. We really don't know with certainty if he is going to barrel these cards. His calling range is far wider than his value betting range here. Most villains do not value bet thinly, so it's better that we bet for value. A value-oriented strategy is really the bread and butter of beating live low stakes and in general we should be betting when we think we have the best hand and this is no exception.

That too, if you called the turn you should be betting the River. You don't want him checking behind, which he's likely to do.

you really really need to change your perceptions of good play (aggro=/=good play), this is 2014 not 2011, I limp a ton of small blinds and call alot, a ton of regs are "passive" the game has changed

Heehaw why does such an intelligent man as yourself not use pokertracker or hold em manager?

What games are you limping a ton of small blinds in?

Op honestly I can't polish a turd here. After more examination using poker stove/flopzilla style software I've discovered not only are you a favourite on both drawing streets against nearly all ranges but you are a MASSIVE favourite against most. I'm sorry to say that anyone advising you to fold this should be disqualified from this thread and all those that said good call should be given credit. Don't shoot the messenger

Double post