Home game advice needed. Losing to LAGs.
I guess it deserved a call as pot-odds alone were 7:1 on my money... but I think I got a little scared and thus protective of my stack. I had about 130 BB when I folded, and the next biggest stack had about 70xBB (the others being approx in the 35-55 range, so I knew I wasn't getting anyone off that hand).
I was jus about to say, how on earth can u have 5 Js in a deck, home game is rigged?
I will probably shove JJ in that hand, or jus flat to set mine if u have a very strong read someone slow playing AA/KK (u r getting almost immediate odds to set mine, don't forget about implied odds)
Hand III I definitely raise turn, there's so way he's folding an Ace here, people jus hate folding, especially those aggro "bullys", don't raise too big and he'll talk himself into a call, then you can value bet the river much bigger.
Hand IV u should bet flop near 100% of time, because you want ppl to call with dominated Aces, you don't hit a big hand often, so value bet to death when you have one (TPTK is a monster in this game)
In general, you should be value betting a lot in this game, especially when there're draws on board, bet as much as they'll call.
I wish I can come to ur games, GL at the tables
I will probably shove JJ in that hand, or jus flat to set mine if u have a very strong read someone slow playing AA/KK (u r getting almost immediate odds to set mine, don't forget about implied odds)
Hand III I definitely raise turn, there's so way he's folding an Ace here, people jus hate folding, especially those aggro "bullys", don't raise too big and he'll talk himself into a call, then you can value bet the river much bigger.
Hand IV u should bet flop near 100% of time, because you want ppl to call with dominated Aces, you don't hit a big hand often, so value bet to death when you have one (TPTK is a monster in this game)
In general, you should be value betting a lot in this game, especially when there're draws on board, bet as much as they'll call.
I wish I can come to ur games, GL at the tables
Good to hear about your latest session.
I'm no expert - certainly not after people like ChrisV have weighed in (you've realised, I'm sure, that he's a totally solid player and exactly the kind of guy you want to get advice from) - but does anyone think in hand 1, our shove allows villain to play perfect poker? These bullies often hate to fold to a non-shove four bet, and by sticking it in we're giving up the chance to see a flop v his 4-bet calling range which we have crushed.
How many people are calling with KK and AA in that spot? The fact that people are calling takes AA and KK out of their range, surely?
Keep concentrating on making good decisions. That's the part you can control. Results will take care of themselves.
Good Luck
Go on, you only said that to get us drooling. Personally, it worked like a charm.
I'm no expert - certainly not after people like ChrisV have weighed in (you've realised, I'm sure, that he's a totally solid player and exactly the kind of guy you want to get advice from) - but does anyone think in hand 1, our shove allows villain to play perfect poker? These bullies often hate to fold to a non-shove four bet, and by sticking it in we're giving up the chance to see a flop v his 4-bet calling range which we have crushed.
W.r.t to the JJ hand, I figured with so many callers it was likely that my JJ was behind a QQ, KK, AA.
Keep concentrating on making good decisions. That's the part you can control. Results will take care of themselves.
Good Luck
to his left sat this girl who is the biggest calling station in the world
Hand II
I picked up AKo in the SB. Everyone limped, I made it 3xBB.
I picked up AKo in the SB. Everyone limped, I made it 3xBB.
Also you aren't really losing to LAGs, these guys are obviously fish...
So it went rather well. I played my best game at the table so far. I bought in once and stuck to it. Also, my stack only moved in one direction throughout the game – upwards. I think I did miss out on some opportunities because I decidedly avoided speculative spots. I also tried my best to play a certain meta game and the poker gods played along.
I don't mind a few opps passed on those speculative spots, part of the strat we discussed earlier, but don't take that too far. More on this later in this post re: AK hand & JJ hand
...to his left sat this girl who is the biggest calling station in the world.
Hand I
The first hand I played was some 25 minutes into the game. I picked up KK UTG. I raised to 3xBB a relatively small raise but it was part of a plan. The player to my right often likes to bully me in my first few hands. Sure enough, he insta-raised to 8xBB, the girl called, fold, call, call, fold. It came back to me and I moved all-in. The bully folded and the girl called and did one more person. The girl had A8 clubs, and the other caller had JTo. The flop was 7 J A rainbow, K, 9. I took down a big pot and more than tripled my stack.
This made the bully a little wary of my 3xBB raise and I made a mental note to use that later in the game.
The first hand I played was some 25 minutes into the game. I picked up KK UTG. I raised to 3xBB a relatively small raise but it was part of a plan. The player to my right often likes to bully me in my first few hands. Sure enough, he insta-raised to 8xBB, the girl called, fold, call, call, fold. It came back to me and I moved all-in. The bully folded and the girl called and did one more person. The girl had A8 clubs, and the other caller had JTo. The flop was 7 J A rainbow, K, 9. I took down a big pot and more than tripled my stack.
This made the bully a little wary of my 3xBB raise and I made a mental note to use that later in the game.
Hand IV (I don’t think I played this well)
I pick up AK in the CO. Raised 3xBB in a limped pot. Surprisingly, I think it was my table image this evening that caused everyone but the BB(calling station) and a MP player to fold. So 3 handed we saw the flop.
A J 3, it was checked around to me and I checked behind with the intention of betting the turn and value betting the river, I wanted to keep the pot small as per the advice received here. Turn was T that also put a backdoor flush draw on the board. I bet ¾ of the pot, got one caller. River was a 7(no flush). I bet half the pot and he folded.
What are your comments on this?
I pick up AK in the CO. Raised 3xBB in a limped pot. Surprisingly, I think it was my table image this evening that caused everyone but the BB(calling station) and a MP player to fold. So 3 handed we saw the flop.
A J 3, it was checked around to me and I checked behind with the intention of betting the turn and value betting the river, I wanted to keep the pot small as per the advice received here. Turn was T that also put a backdoor flush draw on the board. I bet ¾ of the pot, got one caller. River was a 7(no flush). I bet half the pot and he folded.
What are your comments on this?
Hand VI
I picked up JJ in MP. UTG raised to 6xBB (range AT, AQ , AJ, 77-TT), 2 calls and I flatted, the bully shoved all in with 11xBB on top of the call. Original raiser called, 2 other guys called. I folded. Now, I don’t know if this was a sound decision given that the pot was so big, but I knew that every one was going to go berserk on the flop irrespective of what came. I didn’t want go set-mining because there was also a chance I was behind. The flop was A9J (two heart), original raiser went all-in and got one caller. OR had AJ, the other called had JT. The guy who had shoved all-in pre-flop had 9Ts. 2 blanks and the original raiser took down the pot. How would you guys have played this differently?
I picked up JJ in MP. UTG raised to 6xBB (range AT, AQ , AJ, 77-TT), 2 calls and I flatted, the bully shoved all in with 11xBB on top of the call. Original raiser called, 2 other guys called. I folded. Now, I don’t know if this was a sound decision given that the pot was so big, but I knew that every one was going to go berserk on the flop irrespective of what came. I didn’t want go set-mining because there was also a chance I was behind. The flop was A9J (two heart), original raiser went all-in and got one caller. OR had AJ, the other called had JT. The guy who had shoved all-in pre-flop had 9Ts. 2 blanks and the original raiser took down the pot. How would you guys have played this differently?
This was a perfect spot to set mine, you had nearly correct initial odds and more than enough implied odds to see a flop here. Set mining is effective for the very reason you chose not to.....you may be behind preflop, which means when you hit your set you can usually get tons of value or even stack off a villain with a big hand, he won't let it go. Review this one again and look at the odds, this is a missed opportunity that should have been played. If flop misses you then fold to most action, unless board gives you some str8 or flush draws as well.
All in all a better session, well done. Keep this up, review this and improve in a couple spots. You did very well, congrats!
GL
I am new and looking to improve my game, so please feel free to comment,,,
I don't blame you for folding the JJ, if the flop would have been AK8 I think the replys might be different. maybe thats a leak in my game?
I don't blame you for folding the JJ, if the flop would have been AK8 I think the replys might be different. maybe thats a leak in my game?
Results oriented thinking is definitely a leak in anyone's game.
We're concentrating on what was the best decision at the time the decision was being made. That's the only bit under OP's control.
And the general consensus is that folding was a mistake. But we're saying that whatever the flop happened to be. We're definitely not saying, oh, there was a J on the flop - you should have called. And if the flop had come down AK8 we wouldn't be saying, hey, good fold.
Again, Welcome to the Forums. We're all learners here. Ask lots of questions. There are people around here willing to help us.
Good Luck.
Yes, it probably is a leak in your game then. Flop does not matter at all in this.
Situation is that Hero is faced with a 68bb pot and 11bb to call with a good PP - given the action and stack sizes this is a perfect set mining situation. He is getting nearly 6.5:1 pot odds initially and close to 20:1 implied odds with the stack sizes at the table as nobody was short stacked here. His chances of flopping a set are ~ 8:1 so the initial odds are very close to correct and the implied odds are more than profitable. If flop came as you state, and action was heavy, we fold. Easy play and you might want to review the hand again and do the math.
I am ashamed to say that I lost $400 last night. We had 3 guest players(gamblers and loose players). I played a total of 11 hands till showdown and 24 hands aside from these 11 that didn't reach showdown. I think I played well. The hand in which I lost my entire stack was:
I picked up AQs in late position. Several limps, and one guy in MP raises to 6x BB (range 67s to AK but not AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT). I had ben playing this guy for over 5 hours by now...the reason I hadn't left yet was because I felt like I could have him. He was no fish this guy, but he was absent minded(mucked a flush, then mucked a fullhouse...and no he wasn't lying he mucked face up both times...he clearly didn't read the board well). He was truly obnoxious and annoying and kept cracking the sort of innuendo jokes that my nephew in grade 5 would be expected to crack. But he kept matching the top stack and was sitting with $ 550+ at this time. A few folds and it came to me, I repopped him by another 12BB. I wanted to know where I stood... I was going to throw my hand away if he shoved, repopped. But I felt like it was the right thing to do. He started playing with his hand and was not hollywooding but was very close to mucking when some imbecile asked him whether my raise made him pee his pants. He called. We saw the flop heads up : A 2 2 (2 spades). I bet half the pot(About 25BB), he raised to 55BB which was almost a min raise and seemed weak. He had been betting his draws quite a lot and re-raising with top pair. He also seemed paranoid about other drawing out on him.
Though I know I took some time to think this through...it felt like time moved rather fast in the one moment and I don't know how I gathered to courage to do this...I moved all in. I didn't want him to draw out and I felt confident I was ahead. His range did include AK, but I felt that was the only hand beating me. He asked me whether I had AA. Then he laughed his annoying laugh and called. I showed AQ, he showed 5,2 off-suit. Turnand river were both blanks. I lost $ 400 in that hand. God, I hate this game some times.
I picked up AQs in late position. Several limps, and one guy in MP raises to 6x BB (range 67s to AK but not AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT). I had ben playing this guy for over 5 hours by now...the reason I hadn't left yet was because I felt like I could have him. He was no fish this guy, but he was absent minded(mucked a flush, then mucked a fullhouse...and no he wasn't lying he mucked face up both times...he clearly didn't read the board well). He was truly obnoxious and annoying and kept cracking the sort of innuendo jokes that my nephew in grade 5 would be expected to crack. But he kept matching the top stack and was sitting with $ 550+ at this time. A few folds and it came to me, I repopped him by another 12BB. I wanted to know where I stood... I was going to throw my hand away if he shoved, repopped. But I felt like it was the right thing to do. He started playing with his hand and was not hollywooding but was very close to mucking when some imbecile asked him whether my raise made him pee his pants. He called. We saw the flop heads up : A 2 2 (2 spades). I bet half the pot(About 25BB), he raised to 55BB which was almost a min raise and seemed weak. He had been betting his draws quite a lot and re-raising with top pair. He also seemed paranoid about other drawing out on him.
Though I know I took some time to think this through...it felt like time moved rather fast in the one moment and I don't know how I gathered to courage to do this...I moved all in. I didn't want him to draw out and I felt confident I was ahead. His range did include AK, but I felt that was the only hand beating me. He asked me whether I had AA. Then he laughed his annoying laugh and called. I showed AQ, he showed 5,2 off-suit. Turnand river were both blanks. I lost $ 400 in that hand. God, I hate this game some times.
Still reeling. Yes, I could have folded... I thought I was getting my money in while I was ahead. I'll probably give a more coherent description of what went through my head once I am done tilting.
Playing well is all that matters.
Please tell us that you realise those two statements you made were contradictory.
Ashamed that cards, over which you have no control, didn't turn the way you wanted them to? Why would you feel shame? Beating yourself up over things you can't control is a crappy way to treat yourself. Stop doing it would be my advice.
There are guys in this thread who know way more about poker than I do, and how you should have played that hand. FWIW I probably would have flatted his first raise.
Kudos to you for telling us about a hand you don't feel good about. That takes balls.
Good Luck.
(6bb + 12bb) * 2 players + "x" limps = 36 + "x" bb in the pot preflop
your stack is ~$400 which is ~800bb?
If this is correct there are pretty much no situations you want to get it all in on the flop without the nuts.
Additionally, minraise is very often a sign of strength from an amateur (they want money but they don't want to "scare you off"). Equipped with that knowledge and a massive stack it's easy to just call his raise on the flop and evaluate the turn, river as they come.
Unlucky tho, it's a pretty sick beat.
your stack is ~$400 which is ~800bb?
If this is correct there are pretty much no situations you want to get it all in on the flop without the nuts.
Additionally, minraise is very often a sign of strength from an amateur (they want money but they don't want to "scare you off"). Equipped with that knowledge and a massive stack it's easy to just call his raise on the flop and evaluate the turn, river as they come.
Unlucky tho, it's a pretty sick beat.
My bad. I hadn't noticed stack sizes. If you were still playing $0.5/$0.5, even I feel qualified to tell you that getting 800bb in with top pair, second kicker on a paired board is pretty bad.
But you don't need to feel bad. Use it as something to learn from. Read up on pot control, commitment threshold blah, blah, blah. Use the search feature. Find threads about these topics. Find hands other guys have posted in similar spots.
Good Luck
But you don't need to feel bad. Use it as something to learn from. Read up on pot control, commitment threshold blah, blah, blah. Use the search feature. Find threads about these topics. Find hands other guys have posted in similar spots.
Good Luck
Sometimes when i was playing in my earlier days, i would feel that if i had a value hand such as AQ on an ace high board, i was *always* making a mistake by calling because i either had it and should be betting for value/protection, or i didn't have it and i should be folding.
But it's ok to let someone else lay incorrect odds for themselves by semi bluffing their draw. It doesn't matter if you bet and they call, or they call and you bet. Getting money in with >50% equity is winning.
The other benefit of pot controlling hands like that is that it merges with your weaker bluff catching range and villains may stop firing if they think you could be stationing with tpgk on a drawy board.
But it's ok to let someone else lay incorrect odds for themselves by semi bluffing their draw. It doesn't matter if you bet and they call, or they call and you bet. Getting money in with >50% equity is winning.
The other benefit of pot controlling hands like that is that it merges with your weaker bluff catching range and villains may stop firing if they think you could be stationing with tpgk on a drawy board.
I am ashamed to say that I lost $400 last night. We had 3 guest players(gamblers and loose players). I played a total of 11 hands till showdown and 24 hands aside from these 11 that didn't reach showdown. I think I played well. The hand in which I lost my entire stack was:
your stack is ~$400 which is ~800bb?
If this is correct there are pretty much no situations you want to get it all in on the flop without the nuts.
Additionally, minraise is very often a sign of strength from an amateur (they want money but they don't want to "scare you off"). Equipped with that knowledge and a massive stack it's easy to just call his raise on the flop and evaluate the turn, river as they come.
Unlucky tho, it's a pretty sick beat.
If this is correct there are pretty much no situations you want to get it all in on the flop without the nuts.
Additionally, minraise is very often a sign of strength from an amateur (they want money but they don't want to "scare you off"). Equipped with that knowledge and a massive stack it's easy to just call his raise on the flop and evaluate the turn, river as they come.
Unlucky tho, it's a pretty sick beat.
"Very often my stack rises steadily as the night proceeds, some at the table keep topping-up to match the chipleader. And then it takes just one of these beats to wipe me out."
That is an accurate description of what happened last night. So while you played well, it took only one mistake (everyone makes mistakes, we never play perfect poker) but you committed 800bb on a single hand so that single mistake resulted in you feeling bad about yourself today. IMO this is the issue that needs your attention more than any other.
If you know the players are gambling, you simply cannot play into their strategy. They buy in to match the biggest stack and need only hit one time to regain all the chips they foolishly lost to you in the 5 hours previous.
Either adjust your stack size as I suggested earlier, and if not then you must stop putting all your chips in the middle at this game without the nuts. You know that top pair good kicker is not the nuts on any board, and you also know these players do not have easy ranges you can put them on since they can and will play any two cards against you.
Hopefully you learn from this. But the last thing you should feel is "shame" you played well for 5 hours and made one small mistake. It is only the size of the betting in that hand that makes it important in the overall 5 hour game. If you had played this like Jimjam lays out in his post then you probably lose ~1 BI here, which would be just a hiccup to an otherwise profitable night. Don't beat yourself up over this, use it to make your discipline stronger next game.
I admire you for the courage to post that hand here, and to share your story.
GL
While reraising preflop in that spot is likely the "correct" play it's questionable when you're not experienced at deep stack. Flop I would generally check unless I was confident of getting three streets vs a worse ace. After being checkraised you need to call flop, call turn and consider folding river. Chucking your stack in on the flop is folding out everything you beat.
No, they agree on this:
Because pots frequently get big quickly in these loose and somewhat deep stacked games, the idea is that you need to concentrate on being the one who is ahead when the last big bet goes in. A lot of the "I can't beat these bad players because someone always hits with their crap" frustration you hear from tight players is because often they're beaten when the final, very large bet goes in on the river. If so, that undoes all the value betting they did when they were ahead and then some. Sometimes it's unavoidable to have your AA run down or whatever, but there's a few things you can do. Either you want to be in position, or if out of position you want to be playing your hand really aggressively, betting full pot or even more. If players are going to try to draw out on you while you still have a bunch of money in your stack, make it very expensive for them to do so.
Anyway that was a bit of a tangent - my point is that you always want to play your hands so you're ahead when the big bets go in. Since pocket pairs flop sets, ideally you want the pot juiced a bit with a raise, so that big money can be going in on the flop. Suited aces and connectors usually flop draws, not made hands, so with those you want to see a flop as cheaply as possible and try to make a hand before big money starts going in.
Although you'd prefer to have 33 in a raised pot, obviously don't raise 33 if there's a lot of reraising going on as you don't want to be forced off your hand. Also I'm not sure exactly how much preflop spewing is going on in this game, but you can't be limping hands if it comes back to you raised to 20BB like every hand. If that keeps happening, you have no choice but to revert to a boring game of playing killer hands preflop and trapping people into getting AIPF with you.
A lot of these questions are "Teach me to play poker". For instance, if you get into a pot with a suited ace-rag and hit the ace, general advice is that you want to get to a showdown cheaply (but also not allow too many free cards if nobody else has anything). How many bets you should call and how big those bets can be enroute to showdown depends heavily on the exact board texture, how many opponents you have, the nature of those opponents, your exact kicker (is it an 8, or a 2?), etc.
General advice tho:
- To call with a pocket pair preflop for set value, effective stack size has to be at a minimum 10 times the amount you're calling.
- Tend to give up early out of position. Say you've limped in with A6 of hearts from early position, a mid position player raises, two other players call and you also call. The flop comes Ad Qd 5c. You absolutely must be check folding here. If you check call flops and then check fold turns/rivers here you will be burning money.
Yes? Poker is all about adapting to your opponents, that's why I put "good poker strategy" in quote marks. If they're maniacs, you have to go defensive. If you have an opponent who goes allin preflop with 60% of his hands, you don't still open raise JTo on the button to 3x and then fold when he ships from the blinds as it's burning money. Instead you have to to both tighten up your initial raising range and loosen up your calling range when he ships.
A final point is that this game is going to involve a bunch of variance no matter what you do. Be willing to gamble when they force you to (eg the 99 hand) but try to avoid putting yourself in spots where you have to make those decisions on insufficient information (the 88 hand).
Because pots frequently get big quickly in these loose and somewhat deep stacked games, the idea is that you need to concentrate on being the one who is ahead when the last big bet goes in. A lot of the "I can't beat these bad players because someone always hits with their crap" frustration you hear from tight players is because often they're beaten when the final, very large bet goes in on the river. If so, that undoes all the value betting they did when they were ahead and then some. Sometimes it's unavoidable to have your AA run down or whatever, but there's a few things you can do. Either you want to be in position, or if out of position you want to be playing your hand really aggressively, betting full pot or even more. If players are going to try to draw out on you while you still have a bunch of money in your stack, make it very expensive for them to do so.
Anyway that was a bit of a tangent - my point is that you always want to play your hands so you're ahead when the big bets go in. Since pocket pairs flop sets, ideally you want the pot juiced a bit with a raise, so that big money can be going in on the flop. Suited aces and connectors usually flop draws, not made hands, so with those you want to see a flop as cheaply as possible and try to make a hand before big money starts going in.
Although you'd prefer to have 33 in a raised pot, obviously don't raise 33 if there's a lot of reraising going on as you don't want to be forced off your hand. Also I'm not sure exactly how much preflop spewing is going on in this game, but you can't be limping hands if it comes back to you raised to 20BB like every hand. If that keeps happening, you have no choice but to revert to a boring game of playing killer hands preflop and trapping people into getting AIPF with you.
A lot of these questions are "Teach me to play poker". For instance, if you get into a pot with a suited ace-rag and hit the ace, general advice is that you want to get to a showdown cheaply (but also not allow too many free cards if nobody else has anything). How many bets you should call and how big those bets can be enroute to showdown depends heavily on the exact board texture, how many opponents you have, the nature of those opponents, your exact kicker (is it an 8, or a 2?), etc.
General advice tho:
- To call with a pocket pair preflop for set value, effective stack size has to be at a minimum 10 times the amount you're calling.
- Tend to give up early out of position. Say you've limped in with A6 of hearts from early position, a mid position player raises, two other players call and you also call. The flop comes Ad Qd 5c. You absolutely must be check folding here. If you check call flops and then check fold turns/rivers here you will be burning money.
Yes? Poker is all about adapting to your opponents, that's why I put "good poker strategy" in quote marks. If they're maniacs, you have to go defensive. If you have an opponent who goes allin preflop with 60% of his hands, you don't still open raise JTo on the button to 3x and then fold when he ships from the blinds as it's burning money. Instead you have to to both tighten up your initial raising range and loosen up your calling range when he ships.
A final point is that this game is going to involve a bunch of variance no matter what you do. Be willing to gamble when they force you to (eg the 99 hand) but try to avoid putting yourself in spots where you have to make those decisions on insufficient information (the 88 hand).
DD, thanks for the 2 links. They helped me address one or two conceptual leaks in my game.
I see how I played at AQ hand wrong, and it would have still been okay if I were playing 200BB as per the suggestion given to me by PapaPyrite, but I wasn't and therefore is was plain stupid to take such a risk. But even though the lesson came at a huge cost, I assure you I will never make that mistake again. And that's a ton of money saved right there.
But that aside, I am one helluva happy puppy today. I just returned home with approx $ 1200. Of profit.
I wish I could make a video of today's game, I am sure I'd make some of you very proud. Especially, DD, PP, and Chris. In the whole night, I think I played only one hand wrong. Aside from that, I did at one point make my trips on the river but I didn't bet it because there was a small possibility of a FH.
Before, I talk of some of my exploits I am proud of, I want to talk about the trouble hand first. In the BB, I pick up Qs7d. We were playing 7 handed, UTG+2 raised to 2xBB after two limps, everyone called and when it came to me I called to, the UTG called, as did UTG+1. So we saw the flop with 14BB in the pot.
The flop was : Js 9s Ts. Checked to UTG+1, who (donk?)bet 4BB, UTG+2 called, CO min raised to 8BB, BTN folded, SB folded.now there is 30BB in the pot, with 3 guys to act behind me. The OR in UTG+2 could have made that min-raise with Ax, JTs, any 2 pictures, a small to mid pocket pairs. I could see him getting agitated and felt that maybe a shove was coming. I didn't want to call and then be raised all in. A lot of these guys chase and are willing to pay any price for their flushes. So I folded. I don't know if this was a good fold...but my initial investment was just 4BB so it was easy to let it go. My stack was at 120BB approx, and every one was in the range of 95-100BB except UTG+1 whose was at 140, and the BTN(who had folded and whose was at 30BB).
UTG folded.
UTG+1 called.
UTG+2 raised all in.
CO called.
UTG+1 tank-called.
Now there was close to 350BB in the pot.
UTG+2 (OR) showed AsJd
CO showed QhKs
UTG+1 showed 7,8 of clubs.
Turn 2c.
River 4s.
UTG+2 took it down with his nut flush. And promptly gave it to me in the next few hands(which I will come to in a bit).
I want to know how I should have played my hand, and the hands of each of those involved in the pot. I think there is a lot I could learn from this hand.
Now that the work is done, let's move to my exploits.
I admit that the poker god were on my side tonight.
I got paid some 60BB when I had AK and the flop was 4 J K turn 2 river 7 by K6(was chasing a flush also) and KT.
I picked up KK in the SB, the action was limped around to me and I raised to 6xBB and got 4 callers. On a flop of Th 9h 8. I checked because every one was still tilting from the hand I described first. UTG+1(the big winner from the hand above let's call him Pete) shoved all in with 400BB, CO (with 30 BB) shoved all in too. The action was folded around to me. I had 210xBB with a Kh. It was possible I was behind a 2 pair but it did feel like the shove-r thought that luck was on his side and was gambling with a draw. I was certain the shortstack had hit the top pair and nothing else. So I called. UTG+1 had Ac7s, and the CO had T6. Turn and River didn't improve their hands and I took down a pot.
The very next hand I picked up 33 and called Pete's 4xBB because he had a huge stack and was tilting and I thought I could take advantage of that. I flopped a set on a flop of J 7 3 (r) and checked to him. He shoved all-in, I insta called, he showed 99.
After this I cashed out and played with only 100BB. I bluffed very only once(huge pot though) and played fairly tight and cashed out every time I had in excess of 200BB. Towards the end one guy had a stack of 300BB and was playing very aggressively, so I bought in to match his stack and waited to pick up a premium hand folding all ATs, and pairs up to 88 against him. His betting was standard. Every 4 th hand he would raise 6xBB preflop, then bet pot on flop and turn and go all in on the river. He did this with many hands from J7o to K9s. Against me(when I had QQ), he raised pre-flop, he re-raised, I called. He bet pot on a flop of J 3 8, I called, turn was a Q, he went all in, I called. He showed A6.
I am happy with my game today. I was the only big winner tonight, most people lost and one person was up some $10.
I see how I played at AQ hand wrong, and it would have still been okay if I were playing 200BB as per the suggestion given to me by PapaPyrite, but I wasn't and therefore is was plain stupid to take such a risk. But even though the lesson came at a huge cost, I assure you I will never make that mistake again. And that's a ton of money saved right there.
But that aside, I am one helluva happy puppy today. I just returned home with approx $ 1200. Of profit.
I wish I could make a video of today's game, I am sure I'd make some of you very proud. Especially, DD, PP, and Chris. In the whole night, I think I played only one hand wrong. Aside from that, I did at one point make my trips on the river but I didn't bet it because there was a small possibility of a FH.
Before, I talk of some of my exploits I am proud of, I want to talk about the trouble hand first. In the BB, I pick up Qs7d. We were playing 7 handed, UTG+2 raised to 2xBB after two limps, everyone called and when it came to me I called to, the UTG called, as did UTG+1. So we saw the flop with 14BB in the pot.
The flop was : Js 9s Ts. Checked to UTG+1, who (donk?)bet 4BB, UTG+2 called, CO min raised to 8BB, BTN folded, SB folded.now there is 30BB in the pot, with 3 guys to act behind me. The OR in UTG+2 could have made that min-raise with Ax, JTs, any 2 pictures, a small to mid pocket pairs. I could see him getting agitated and felt that maybe a shove was coming. I didn't want to call and then be raised all in. A lot of these guys chase and are willing to pay any price for their flushes. So I folded. I don't know if this was a good fold...but my initial investment was just 4BB so it was easy to let it go. My stack was at 120BB approx, and every one was in the range of 95-100BB except UTG+1 whose was at 140, and the BTN(who had folded and whose was at 30BB).
UTG folded.
UTG+1 called.
UTG+2 raised all in.
CO called.
UTG+1 tank-called.
Now there was close to 350BB in the pot.
UTG+2 (OR) showed AsJd
CO showed QhKs
UTG+1 showed 7,8 of clubs.
Turn 2c.
River 4s.
UTG+2 took it down with his nut flush. And promptly gave it to me in the next few hands(which I will come to in a bit).
I want to know how I should have played my hand, and the hands of each of those involved in the pot. I think there is a lot I could learn from this hand.
Now that the work is done, let's move to my exploits.
I admit that the poker god were on my side tonight.
I got paid some 60BB when I had AK and the flop was 4 J K turn 2 river 7 by K6(was chasing a flush also) and KT.
I picked up KK in the SB, the action was limped around to me and I raised to 6xBB and got 4 callers. On a flop of Th 9h 8. I checked because every one was still tilting from the hand I described first. UTG+1(the big winner from the hand above let's call him Pete) shoved all in with 400BB, CO (with 30 BB) shoved all in too. The action was folded around to me. I had 210xBB with a Kh. It was possible I was behind a 2 pair but it did feel like the shove-r thought that luck was on his side and was gambling with a draw. I was certain the shortstack had hit the top pair and nothing else. So I called. UTG+1 had Ac7s, and the CO had T6. Turn and River didn't improve their hands and I took down a pot.
The very next hand I picked up 33 and called Pete's 4xBB because he had a huge stack and was tilting and I thought I could take advantage of that. I flopped a set on a flop of J 7 3 (r) and checked to him. He shoved all-in, I insta called, he showed 99.
After this I cashed out and played with only 100BB. I bluffed very only once(huge pot though) and played fairly tight and cashed out every time I had in excess of 200BB. Towards the end one guy had a stack of 300BB and was playing very aggressively, so I bought in to match his stack and waited to pick up a premium hand folding all ATs, and pairs up to 88 against him. His betting was standard. Every 4 th hand he would raise 6xBB preflop, then bet pot on flop and turn and go all in on the river. He did this with many hands from J7o to K9s. Against me(when I had QQ), he raised pre-flop, he re-raised, I called. He bet pot on a flop of J 3 8, I called, turn was a Q, he went all in, I called. He showed A6.
I am happy with my game today. I was the only big winner tonight, most people lost and one person was up some $10.
Very nice! I have not had a chance to look over the hands, I'm on the way to my daughter's house for a BBQ and American football watching, will post later.
Glad you are feeling better today
Glad you are feeling better today
Nice work toofaan.
In the first hand, your hand is a clear fold. It's quite possible you're drawing to 2 outs. Other mistakes in the hand: UTG+2's shove will run into sets/straights/flushes too often and UTG+1's overcall with the idiot straight and no flush draw is hideous. CO's decision to raise/get it in was questionable but is probably OK in this game. He should definitely be raising more than minimum though.
In the first hand, your hand is a clear fold. It's quite possible you're drawing to 2 outs. Other mistakes in the hand: UTG+2's shove will run into sets/straights/flushes too often and UTG+1's overcall with the idiot straight and no flush draw is hideous. CO's decision to raise/get it in was questionable but is probably OK in this game. He should definitely be raising more than minimum though.
I like that approach that DD describes, since 15x raises won't fold out 73s here and there is far too much speculative 4 betting. OP you could balance your opens with consistent 4x sizing, play to your strengths postflop like calculating equity / outs but be sure to account for extremely wide ranges. I would work up some equity scenarios for a guideline, and use any random 2 cards for villains to see what equity you have with some of your common starting hands.
On the other extreme if in late position and it is unlikely you will be 3-bet, raise your PPs and SCs to maybe 4x-5x to build a pot in case you hit big. That way you will often get a stack or two if you do hit.
If someone does start picking up on this, start mixing the (very) occassional big hand into your small pre-flop raise to encourage a re-steal where you can come over the top.
What you are effectively doing is keeping your stack to pot ratio very small for your RIO hands (eg. QQ+) and making it very big for your implied odds hands.
Chris, how does a made hand without a draw (i.e. a hand that cannot improve) measure against the nut-flush?
Are you suggesting that if I had 78o without a spade, I should have checked it down and tried to see the river cheaply and perhaps folded to a big bet?
I see how multi-handed it was stupid of him to call, but what if he was up against just the original raiser, who most likely had the high spade.
I have been thinking about this hand quite a lot. I am going to run through a lot of scenarios and keep coming to you guys with qustions.
Thanks.
Are you suggesting that if I had 78o without a spade, I should have checked it down and tried to see the river cheaply and perhaps folded to a big bet?
I see how multi-handed it was stupid of him to call, but what if he was up against just the original raiser, who most likely had the high spade.
I have been thinking about this hand quite a lot. I am going to run through a lot of scenarios and keep coming to you guys with qustions.
Thanks.
Nice work toofaan.
In the first hand, your hand is a clear fold. It's quite possible you're drawing to 2 outs. Other mistakes in the hand: UTG+2's shove will run into sets/straights/flushes too often and UTG+1's overcall with the idiot straight and no flush draw is hideous. CO's decision to raise/get it in was questionable but is probably OK in this game. He should definitely be raising more than minimum though.
In the first hand, your hand is a clear fold. It's quite possible you're drawing to 2 outs. Other mistakes in the hand: UTG+2's shove will run into sets/straights/flushes too often and UTG+1's overcall with the idiot straight and no flush draw is hideous. CO's decision to raise/get it in was questionable but is probably OK in this game. He should definitely be raising more than minimum though.
87 on that flop is a deceptively bad hand. Even versus AsJx, it's only a 60/40 fave because he has various backdoor full and straight possibilities in addition to the flush draw. Against AsQx, say, it's actually an underdog. The only hand that 87s is a big fave against on this flop that an opponent will actually like holding is two pair. And it's very easy to be drawing dead on the flop.
That's not to say you should just check and fold or anything like that, but it's definitely a small pot hand and one you need to play very cautiously. People tend to think that they need to "protect their hand" in this spot and so bet and raise heavily, which is a bad mistake. If the draws your opponents have are roughly as likely to win as your made hand, then you don't gain anything by getting them to put money into the pot, while you stand to lose every cent you bet when drawing dead.
The way I would play the hand in UTG+1's shoes is to check and see what happens. If it comes back to me bet and raised, I would fold. If it comes back at a single bet, I'd call and lead out with a pretty big bet on any non-flush, non-straight card on the turn, folding to a raise. That way I charge my opponents on the turn when their draws have much less equity against me.
By the way, this hand is a good example of the horrendous mistakes people will make postflop in these games. When CO minraises after a bet and a call (i.e. he apparently wants to keep people in the hand) and then stacks off to a reraise, 87 is drawing dead to him like 95% of the time, so UTG+1 threw away pretty much an entire buyin. Imagine if you'd seen a flop with Axss here and had not one but two players ready to get their whole stacks in drawing absolutely stone cold dead. You can see how Axss is such a good hand in these games. The 99 vs a set of threes hand is another example - you didn't say how much he bet postflop but I'm guessing it was a fair overbet. That shove by him is a guaranteed loser - either you have a worse hand and fold (in which case he could have won anyway by showing the hand down), or you have a jack or better and call with him drawing to two outs. It's awful. It's what we refer to as "turning your hand into a bluff" because it doesn't really matter that he has 99 - he wins when you fold and loses when you call, so he might as well have 5 high.
That's not to say you should just check and fold or anything like that, but it's definitely a small pot hand and one you need to play very cautiously. People tend to think that they need to "protect their hand" in this spot and so bet and raise heavily, which is a bad mistake. If the draws your opponents have are roughly as likely to win as your made hand, then you don't gain anything by getting them to put money into the pot, while you stand to lose every cent you bet when drawing dead.
The way I would play the hand in UTG+1's shoes is to check and see what happens. If it comes back to me bet and raised, I would fold. If it comes back at a single bet, I'd call and lead out with a pretty big bet on any non-flush, non-straight card on the turn, folding to a raise. That way I charge my opponents on the turn when their draws have much less equity against me.
By the way, this hand is a good example of the horrendous mistakes people will make postflop in these games. When CO minraises after a bet and a call (i.e. he apparently wants to keep people in the hand) and then stacks off to a reraise, 87 is drawing dead to him like 95% of the time, so UTG+1 threw away pretty much an entire buyin. Imagine if you'd seen a flop with Axss here and had not one but two players ready to get their whole stacks in drawing absolutely stone cold dead. You can see how Axss is such a good hand in these games. The 99 vs a set of threes hand is another example - you didn't say how much he bet postflop but I'm guessing it was a fair overbet. That shove by him is a guaranteed loser - either you have a worse hand and fold (in which case he could have won anyway by showing the hand down), or you have a jack or better and call with him drawing to two outs. It's awful. It's what we refer to as "turning your hand into a bluff" because it doesn't really matter that he has 99 - he wins when you fold and loses when you call, so he might as well have 5 high.
Good to hear about your latest session.
Of course, results don't matter, but booking a win is always nice.
For me, the Qs7d hand has Concept of the Week: Reverse Implied Odds written all over it. If significant money goes in on the flop you're never on the good end of things. Easy fold.
Great attitude imo. We're all learners. Pretty cool to think of you applying yourself to improving while the rich kids either can't be bothered, or don't think it's important.
Good Luck.
EDIT: I'm starting to feel sorry for the rich kids. Damn it, I need to get a grip.
Of course, results don't matter, but booking a win is always nice.
For me, the Qs7d hand has Concept of the Week: Reverse Implied Odds written all over it. If significant money goes in on the flop you're never on the good end of things. Easy fold.
But even though the lesson came at a huge cost, I assure you I will never make that mistake again. And that's a ton of money saved right there.
Good Luck.
EDIT: I'm starting to feel sorry for the rich kids. Damn it, I need to get a grip.
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