Long post. thanks to all who read.

Right now I'm probably a slightly above average heads up player. This is probably my biggest leak in my game and I think if I could get some help with this I'd be much better. 75% of the players I play HU are LAG in position, so when I get an Ax- like A9 or less (if the player is tighter on the button I just fold a weak ace because I struggle with it so much)... I know I'm ahead of his range so I feel like I only have 2 options here... either raise or call. The problem with raising is that unless I flop an ace I have no idea where I am... and even if I do flop an ace its still hard to tell if its any good because my kicker is usually so weak. I feel like the implied odds are way against me when im playing this type of hand. If I raise and flop an ace and bet out its pretty obv what my hand is and if my opponent is weak they fold right away and i win a small pot(Idk if its a mistake but I rarely c/r in these situations because I dont really wanna give free cards if I think I currently have the best hand and I think it help to get info on my opponents hand rather then guessing if its a c-bet), but if they outflop me or have a nice draw I feel like I always end up losing a larger sized pot. If I just call a raise if I dont flop an ace im OOP with no information on villains hand and I just have no clue what to do. Do I need to 3-bet more frequently to open up my range to make my opponent more nervous if an ace doenst flop .. but then again im playing more hands oop so idk if thats more of a disadvantage (espec since I havent played a ton of hands and am still working on my game OOP). should i just fold a weak ace OOP, but then I feel like I'm being a total nit.. any help is appreciated. thanks

I just starting to play heads up, but A any is not a hand you can fold pre flop, especially when they raise every time from the button. I would not worry about the kicker, cuz chances of them having an A as well are pretty slim.

That is terrible advice. Fold weak offsuit aces, and play 68s type hands. It's fine to fold the best hand if your hand is -EV. EV is not decided merely by pot equity, but also but postflop value and other factors.

Ummm... I'd never fold an ace preflop, for a single raise, heads up. And, sorry, there's no way I can believe that 68s has better expectation in a heads up match than A9o. No way, no how. If you find that to be so, I think you must be doing something very wrong.

Then again, I wouldn't fold the 68s either.

Edit: Oh, wait, maybe Nostalgica didn't realize we're talking about a heads up game?

OP: I'd reraise some of my aces, sometimes, obviously tending to reraise more often the larger the kicker is, even if it's no better than "medium." Other times I'd bet out on the flop whether I improved or not. I'd bet when an ace comes, because I often do so without an ace anyway. I'd check-raise sometimes unimproved on the flop, or float and attack on the turn if there's little to be scared of... or sometimes when there's a lot for my opponent to be scared of. And I'd expect to win some showdowns unimproved as well.

Also, when an ace comes and I bet it (or check-raise it), I wouldn't be at all disappointed taking down the small pot. You're going to get a lot of small pots. And, as you correctly deduced, the times when your opponent is not scared by the ace and your bet/raise are the times you'll find yourself in trouble. Then you switch to "don't go broke" mode.

TLDR, but in NL, folding a lot of Ax's is pretty standard OOP. Suited A's play better, but I don't insta-call any A. Really depends on the opponent. I usually start out a match super tight OOP, until I get a feel for my opponent. Ax is hard to play OOP, if you hit an A, it might not be good, and you can't really control the potsize. Focus on your button. FWIW, I'd rather call 78s or 9Ts pre than A2o-A6o. Playing OOP is hard.

Playing out of position may be hard, but then you just have to be willing to face a lot of hard decisions. Playing tight heads up sounds like a recipe for failure. Aggression and control of the game seem pretty significant to me. Constantly folding hands that you think are likely to be best, because you want to avoid difficult situations on later streets, seems like just giving up the money routinely.

Yeah, if you're the type who's going to give up on the hand often *after* the flop, then you're better off getting away early. But you're in a fight. Surrender easily and you're just getting owned.

And, again, when it comes to comparing 78s, 9Ts, and A2o-A6o... I'd rather play all of them.

Thanks for the replys I think I just need alot more practice but the advice will def help

I didnt say you should play tight HU, I said you should play tight OOP HU.
I cant imagine you regularly play HU 50NL or higher if you are always calling a raise with Ax.

It is pretty much impossible to win medium-big pots with TPNK OOP. You will also often be pushed off the best hand because your can't take heat with TPNK, not to mention the times you don't make TP.

Basically, the little card advantage you have with an A in your hand is usually at least nullified by your positional disadvantage.

That being said, I am not saying you should always fold Ax OOP, I am only saying your definitely shouldnt ALWAYS call with any A, or anywhere close to always.

Heh, unless you're really good playing A2-7o oop is a recipy for disaster to a 3x raise HU.

68s>>>A7o and probally =a9o.

The way you describe it it sounds like you're just purely ego driven, which is bad; think about value instead.

A hand has multi-facets of value - showdown value, position, Valuebetting potential, implied odds, semibluff potential, and bluff-catching value.

An off suit ace has showdown value, no position, no ability to valuebet from oop, no implied odds, no semibluffing oppertunities, and very little bluff-catching value.

^^^^^^^^ Agree with Iron Tamer. Uofi2012 had some good things to say also.

This. Folding A2o is super standard OOP. On the other hand, if you were HU in a 6Max game and SB raises, you can play a lot more hands and maybe even flat call weak Axo with plans to float or just go to showdown, though it'd still be quite marginal.

For the record, A9o is NOT a "weak ace" headsup. It is a fairly decent ace. I draw the line at A8-A9o. Axs are all still playable.

Furthermore, Zandigose, from your post, it seems like your style of play will make you valuetown yourself very often as you will fold out worse hands all the time and never pot control when you could be beat. Uncontrolled aggression is not good. It is better than passivity, perhaps, but it's still not good. Checkraising all TPNK is a recipe for disaster, and not only do you get stacked like that, you also lose the opportunity for value by being able to bluff catch.

Whilst not directed to me, I find this quite rude, and deserving of an apology. You basically called him a nit, misinterpreting what he said. He folds Ax OOP not to avoid difficult situations, but to avoid -EV situations. There is such a thing where folding a hand which may be good sometimes is the correct play due to the overall EV of the scenario.

I would listen to these posters, as they actually play HU as their main game, or at least quite often.

I'll think more deeply about this subject, and reevaluate. But let me add a few points:

-I acknowledge that being out of position is a problem. But it's always a problem with any hand you play from the big blind (barring the rare premium hand). Every hand from the big blind is problematic in one way or another. But clearly the *average* player in a heads up confrontation will take down the blinds half of the time. If your opponent is better at defending his blinds than you are, you lose ground. I'm sure it's okay to be *somewhat* more selective than your opponent, obviously taking down more of the big pots can compensate significantly for missing out on the small pots... but on the other side, taking a lot of small pots can pay for a fair amount of speculation and cover a few big pot losses. In any case, there are limits to how often you can let an aggressive opponent take your big blind. And if you're folding very often, or rarely playing back or raising yourself, then *most* of your opponents are going to become increasingly aggressive in response. Every ace you fold is a hand that *could have* fought back, or at least tried.

-A weak unsuited ace can be a trouble hand. Can't deny it.

-There are different styles of play that work in different ways, though I tend to lean in the loose/aggressive direction when heads up, as I think it's a format that almost demands such an approach. Still, how you play preflop has to work well with the way you choose to play postflop. You have to have a coordinated strategy.

-With all this acknowleged, consider this fact. If you get A2o versus a random hand, you're a 3 to 2 favorite to be best *after the flop*. That is, it's 89% likely that your hand is best before the flop, and you should expect to still be ahead on the typical flop.

Okay, yeah, I know that when my opponent raises, if he doesn't raise his button often, he's more likely to have a pair or better ace than a purely random hand. I know that on many flops I'll be unsure of where I stand. (Then again, my opponent is not always going to know where he stands either, especially if I play a wide variety of hands in a variety of ways, including my ace-anythings). I know that I won't be happy to be out of position. But I still expect that I will usually have the best hand preflop against most opponents... and I'll still be best after the flop... and I can reevaluate based on the action. I don't have to go broke with every ace I'm dealt. But I ususally want my opponent to tell me I'm beat TWICE before I give him too much credit. ("tell me" meaning bet or raise).

And the above stats relate to A2o. Clearly A7o has even better prospects. Mucking an ace, often, is not my prefered style. If I'm wrong, well I guess I'll learn eventually.

This is an argument you will never win.

What flops are you hoping for with A2-A7o? A high? What kind of value do you think you will be able to extract OOP (position allows you to lose the min btw)? Will that value make up for the times you get outplayed, outkicked, and outdrawn, IP, where the opponent can extract max value?

Any small equity edge that you can garner with Ax pre and on those 89% of flops or w/e you said, rarely comes to fruition since it is hard to control the showdown dynamic as the action flows through the BTN.

Also, A2o vs the top 60% of hands:
Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

14,999,783,040 games 0.001 secs 14,999,783,040,000 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 50.000% 46.95% 03.05% 7041939816 457934172.00 { A2o }
Hand 1: 50.000% 46.95% 03.05% 7041974880 457934172.00 { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T3s+, 95s+, 85s+, 75s+, 64s+, 54s, A2o+, K3o+, Q5o+, J7o+, T7o+, 97o+, 87o }

Weak Ace=bad

If I raise, I'm pretty much hoping for no flop. If I call a raise... well, an ace would be nice. A two would be nice (if I've got A2o). A hand that doesn't improve my opponent (most of them) would be nice. A hand that might scare my opponent would be nice. A2x would be nice. 22x would be nice. A flop with two cards suited to my ace would be nice, especially if I also pair my kicker. That doesn't mean I have to play any or all of these flops, but I reckon I can play some of them.

But what flops are you hoping for with 68s? (I love this hand, by the way, so I'm not saying don't play it!) Pairing is nice, and is the way you will most often improve if you do improve. Two pair or better comes rarely, though it's quite nice... it's not much more common than the two pair or better with the Ax hands though... those flopped straights and flushes are precious rarities, and they don't necessarily get you paid when they happen. So, picking up a good draw is nice. You'll get that a lot more often than with A2o... but "a lot more often" is a relative term. It's still "not very often." And when you get your draws, they don't always complete. It's nice when they do. It's nice when you can semi-bluff them and get your opponent off a winner. But sometimes draws cost *you*. Sometimes they cost you as much as you were hoping you could extract from your opponent. Again, don't get me wrong, I like it, I like it. But be fair, these kinds of hands involve a different kind of risk than bad aces, but they remain quite risky. You can play them strongly, but you can also consequently get yourself deeply committed and then busted. So, in some ways, at some times, a bad ace can be *easier* to get away from than a tantalizing speculative hand.

I expect that I can extract the value of whatever number of small pots I pick up pre or post-flop, and in some cases I can extract the value that comes from taking a bit of the aggression out of an opponent who wants to bully too aggresively... and I can bully in return. And, discussions of the value of position can equally be applied to *any* hand played from the big blind.

I hope so. However, I don't often have to let my opponent extract maximum value. People act like one of the advantages of 68s type hands is that, if you miss, you can get away cheaply. Hey, guess what, you don't have to go broke with a bad ace either. You can see a flop, reevaluate when you meet big strength, and sometimes get away. Or, if your opponent is a mega-aggressor, you don't necessarily have to get away. How you play it depends on many factors, obviously.

Also, a hand that wins small pots but loses big pots is not a bad hand. That's the typical description of AA or AKs in NL ring games. They get paid a little, but they lose a lot. And they're *fantastic* none the less. Of course A4o heads up is *not* such a premium hand, but the mere fact that it doesn't win a lot of big pots doesn't mean I shouldn't play it for the small pots.

All told, if my opponent is the sort who raises on the button far less often than he should, then I'll take the few raises he makes more seriously, and fold more tightly. But, knowing that against most opponents, if I fold an ace I'm usually folding the best hand regardless of kicker, just doesn't sit well with me.

Just because your post is long doesn't mean it actually has any content in it.
You basically say the same thing over and over, yet, imo, you never actually justify calling with any offsuit ace OOP. You usually go on to use cliches or some kind of straw man argument.

Correct me if I am wrong, but you basically just think that since an ace is better than a random hand, you should always call with it OOP? You also assume that whoever has the most equity in a hand at any time will be able to realize that equity with no regard to action on future streets or position. Also, since you have already emphasized the fact that Ax is almost always only decent in small pots, how you plan on tricking the opponent into keeping the pot small while IP? Against these aggro BTN raisers that are raising so wide that "Ax is certainly ahead of their range" it is probably not uncommon for them to fire multiple barrels and run multi-street bluffs, imo. Suited/connecting cards are nice because you can pick up small pots with aggression, and win big ones against TPNK type hands.

Also, out of curiosity, what stakes/site of HU cash do you play?

Hmmmm.... apparently you disagree with me. He he he. Well, I thought there was plenty of content in my message. Perhaps you disagree with that content. Okay. Address some of the points. I've attempted to put some numbers behind my assertions, and make it logical and mathematical. If I've gone wrong, I invite you to demonstrate where I went wrong. I'm quite willing to acknowledge the possiblity. So, go ahead and prove your point.

You now seem to want to make this a discussion of me, rather than the fundamental issues. To satisfy you're curiosity, I have very limited experience in heads up cash games, playing for a fifty buck buy-in. But I don't need credentials to discuss theory.

You think my previous post was too long, and you weren't razzle-dazzled by my probability calculations (there's nothing wrong with using pokerstove, and you're welcome to do so, but I worked out my odds with more primitive methods). So, I'll give you a chance to write a long one next... fair is fair. You can present your own logic, your own numbers, your own ideas, and explain, not just that being out of position is bad, and off suit aces don't make big draws, but:

- Why are they bad *enough* that they should often be folded to a single preflop raise heads up in a game where the button should raise a very wide range of hands?

- What hands are worth calling a raise with?

- How often should one surrender the big blind to a raise?

- Since there are a variety of ways to play, and preflop standards are *not* rigidly defined, are you *sure* that weak unsuited aces are as bad as you've portrayed them?

-Have you played a lot of weak unsuited aces, and learned not to through experience, or have you always avoided them?

That's a tall order, so you can start off by answering just one question, preferably the first.

Look its universally known that weak offsuit Ax hands are close to worthless unless you are fully tuned to your opponeant. Watch a dogishead video, he is super loose oop, and he folds a4o.

When you flop an ax hand, your opponeant if he is bad will not bluff you on two streets. So your hand can only get a cbet out of air. If your opponant is good however he'll likely do the same thing with one caveat, you may get barreled, and you cannot call three barrels with Ax on Ayz.

And that is the best board for you other then monotone giving you nfd which you are unlikely to get too much money unless he has the k of that suit, or two/pair trips but every hand loves that.

take a hand like QT; it is so much better on so many more boards, You'll get two barrelled on q73x by someone trying to take you off of Ax. You can c/r with two over, you can flop gutters. You can actually valuebet after calling flop on q7324 and expect to get looked up by lots of pairs. You'll need history to do that on axx.

Ax is just tough to get value from, its pretty, but you don't get value from it period.

You're right HU is fluid, and changing, but every game should be that way, you should still have a general strategy.

if I'm multibotting 3-4 tabling I'll defend (which thankfully I don't do very often, (games are hard to come by these days )) 88-22,A9s-A2s,KJs-K8s,QTs+,J9s+,T8s+,97s+,86s+,75s+,65s,ATo-A9o,KTo-K9o,QTo+,J9o+,T8o+,98o
or about 20%, and 3betting between 6-16% (3betting is an easier stat to adjust, atleast very the fish at ssnl/msnl)


And yeah You're right I have no experiance playing a2o to 3x raises, but so what? I have no experiance three betting 33 vs loose passive fish, yet I know thats not the best strategy.

I will now answer these questions so you stop trolling with your bad advice.

1) A hand like A2o-A6o can flop a pair of aces, this will sometimes be dominated by a hand like AT+ or possibly even a hand like A7s, either way its losing and your opponent will often be able to get 2 streets of value minimum, getting 3 a lot too.
In addition to this I will now discuss the kicker. Playing bottom pair for an inexperienced player or even an experienced player when out of position can get you into 2 types of trouble. The first and most obvious being you will be value towned a decent percentage of the time by higher pairs and the second being you will sometimes fold your hand when it is the best hand due to boards like A2o on 2K7dd then the turn bringing an 8d and the river something like a 9.
You must play this hand out of position for at least 1 street and possibly all 3 streets.

1) Your second question is much more subjective. This will be based on the opponents raise sizing and raise frequency. For the most part and general theory you do not want to call raises with hands which are dominated even though intrinsically strong, these hands are combinations like Q4,A2o,K5 and other hands in this group.
For the reasoning given above it is much better to call raises with hands like 57s 89s A2s KTo etc.

2) Yes I am very sure. I am a winning HU player and have watched videos by people like aejones who confirm this. You may call it rigid or whatever you like but basically what you're saying is a step up from making the arguement that you should defend Q2 or 92, just because they have high card value and are ahead of hands like 56 which is definitely in my button raising range.

3) same as above pretty much

4) Again the question is subjective and cannot be given a straight answer. The answer is much more complex based on how often your opponent is raising and your holdings. The question you are asking is similar to "how often should i be 3 betting an aggressive opponent?" Which obviously cannot be given a numerical answer otherwise HUNL poker would be solved.

5) Im not actually sure. Perhaps when I was awful at poker 2 yrs~ or so ago I may have played weak unsuited aces, but learning more theory and understanding basic concepts of poker in a good level of detail has proven this to be wrong as well as enforcement from better players telling me this is correct.

Just fold weak Ax hands OOP...even when you hit, you'll suffer from negative implied odds if he gives you any action.

Also, check out the HU forum

Okay, I've been shouted down, and I've been given some good reasonable answers as well, so I concede defeat. I'll still make some occassional experiments, and if I get burned, I'll get burned.

Honestly, I've always hated weak aces against any kind of raise in other game formats, including full ring games, limit, no limit... but not in heads up tourneys... and I guess I was tempted to overvalue them in heads-up cash games as well. Well, reevaltuation time. Thanks to those who actually decided to look deeply into the *reasons* rather than the simple repetition of dogma.

To be fair, if you are in an SnG and you Ax, you can shove over 20bbs (or more depending on their raise size and range) pretty easily because as you have said, you are ahead of their range a good deal, but calling is not good. You will not see a lot of free showdowns with ace high-- when you do see showdown it's often because your opponent hits bottom or middle pair or have a better ace high. You can start working out a donk lead dynamic to take some pots, but if you're going to rely on bluffing, suited gappers are much better simply because you'll have bdfd and bdsd + gutshot or even open enders and such very often which allows you to barrel or at least have more equity vs pairs. Truly, calling down with ace high or similar is a part of HU game, but it's a lot easier IP and with strong reads. Remember, even if you have A4 vs trash middle cards, they have pretty decent equity against you.

I am not sure if I am merely repeating dogma, as I did give a few reasons, but whatever.