Tournament $125

V plays way too many hands. Either limp / calls or raises almost every single hand.

V Stack: 20k
Hero Stack: 12k

Blinds: 50/100

Everyone folds to V in MP who raises to 250.
Hero has 8c6c on BTN and calls.
Blinds fold.

Flop: 345 (one club) (Pot: 650)

V bets 250.
Hero calls.

Turn: 4c (FD and OESD now) (Pot: 1150)

V bets 700.

Should I be raising this spot? If so, how much? He most likely has a pocket pair (77+) and *MAYBE* AK.

i mean... by this point it has to be a rhetorical question right

The part you quoted was not a question though.

Not a good spot to raise IMO. You want to see the river as cheap as possible. Vs described villain it's usually not good to be bluffing as they will call you down quite light.

So, I called. River was 3 (no flush) and he bet 1600. This seems really weird to me because he's dead to any 3 or 4 so he should check and let me bluff at it. Him still firing seems bad. What about shoving the river?

Forget V PF tendencies .. How does he play post-Flop? Lots of players are very active in the early stages of a tournament, playing more of a cash game style, but they still know how to play well once the board comes out. You put him on a pretty strong range of hands 'all of a sudden' which includes 2 of your outs.

He has bumped up his bet-to-pot ratio here on the Turn and is probably never folding. What do you think he puts you on? Is he going to check the River on a lot of blanks? You will need to get a feel for the spot if you can try and convince him you have TT here by betting River into a check. 'They' generally want to see what you had and will pay for the information.

Raising here is pretty sticky and you have a player who like to bet ... and you have 8-high. It's best in tournament, and cash, to make sure you have something before you play a game of chicken with this player type.

I think you're better off trying to let him bet for 'your' value since he will probably see cards that help you as scare cards and try to use them against you.

I think you get paid a bunch from his Ax and 4x hands and are drawing to the nut straight on the high side as well. GL

How many hands in your preflop range have a 3 or 4 in it, with how many of those 3x hands do you call flop and turn and with how many 4x hands do you call the turn?

And what is he folding when you shove? Why would he 'now' believe that he is beat? Why would he risk a showdown by checking with air .. you have shown zero interest in protecting this pot and then shove 9200 over 5750?

Why aren't you afraid of a 3x or 4x from V? That should be his thought when facing your shove ... Based on most any image you should be just as less likely to have a 3 or 4 as him IMO.

We still need to know his post-Flop tendencies and what he thinks of you. I think there 'should' be better spots to get chips from this V. I think I just fold and let him think we called off a few bets with KQs here. GL

His post flop tendency is: bet every street. He plays nearly every hand and he fires constantly. I saw him check raise one time. Played at the table for about an hour.

And does this dude really have a 4 or 3 in his hand as being the raiser from mid position?

1) I think it's unlikely that either of you have a 3 or 4, but more likely that he has one. A3-A4s/45 are in every 'active' players range IMO. We don't know his image of you ... or if he cares enough to pay attention.

2) The bigger issue is what are you trying to fold out and how often is he going to fold, even the marginal hands? He will find it a challenge to try and figure out your story. And your story makes no sense for the most part. You are saying you have an Ace (come chop with me) or a pocket pair (for the win).

It's an interesting dynamic for sure. Since you are shorter I think you get more calls here than if you could take him out of the tournament. Certainly all Ax and his own pp are calling, maybe even Kx/Qx hands. If you are so certain that he is firing 3 bullets here with his whole range of hands then I think a shove here can work quite often, but for your tournament life?

I just think you are better off keeping the chips you still have left for a better spot against a predictable opponent. GL

If he's an aggrotard post-flop, it's a fold pre. You should only be seeing the flop with this hand if villain is going to let you see free cards, or if he check-folds all his air on the flop. Playing 8-high vs an aggrofish isn't going to work out well. You need to flop top pair against him.

It's 2.5 BB. Shouldn't a hand like this be good because it is disguised?

I don't mind the preflop call, to try and bust him up a bit...but, DON'T get sucked into chasing it unless you have multiple draws AT THE RIGHT PRICE... when the turn pairs the board, it was past time to be done...

Then you need to ask yourself- what could you beat? From what you described, he was going to call your shove, players like this LOVE to gamble- is this your best spot for your tournament life?

86s is exactly the type of hand you want to call pre because when you hit that straight/flush vs an aggro you get paid well.

I'm not sure why the board pairing matters. He very rarely has a 4 here. More likely has Ace high or a pocket pair. If I nail the straight or the flush, I'm certain he will still bet the river.

Pot is 1150 and he bet 700. You have, absolute best case, 18 outs (over, gutshot, flush). Far more likely your over outs are dead, which mean you maybe have a gutshot + fd (12 outs) unless you're already drawing dead (33, 34, 44, 45, 55) or villain has better clubs (9xcc)

So with one card to come, if we're generous and give you full flush+gutshot, you're 24% ish to win. Pot is 1850 so you cannot make a good call unless you think you actually have 16 outs (unlikely by your own statement), so you need the IO - which you say you have. So you could call, here, I suppose, but frankly I think 12 outs is optimistic.

If you raise you must commit > 10% of your stack and you can't stand a 3-bet unless you intend suicide.

This is not the spot. This was not the spot pre. Him being laggy doesn't mean you get lappy to fight him.

Fold pre best. 68s is not a good battling hand vs. LAG. Call pre fold flop better. Call on flop was suicidal. Now you've put yourself in a very tough decision because of the turn card.

If you want to be disguised, play with a couple of 'Guess Who?' cards. Villain will never put you on Albert and Maria when you raise the flop. If you want to make money, try playing with cards that actually make good hands at a decent frequency.

You are contradicting yourself.

If he plays way too many hands, why do you think he has 7s+? No one has that kind of run, chances are he is just a donk. That flop gave you a perfect opportunity to push back. Instead, you opted to continue to be a calling station. If you have been sitting at the table a long time with them and calling and then folding their post flop play, then now is when you 3-bet over the top. Since you elected to show weakness with having actual weakness, then calling the turn on without catching a straight is a waste of chips.

A4 in his range???- I could see someone like you describe betting middle pair with wheel draw.

OP, you seem to want to justify everything you did or thought versus let everyone share their opinions and why...which is what you asked for.
First your initial question is valid- but don't beat yourself up on "what ifs", there is a hand right behind it, pick your spots against a guy like this.

Don't fool yourself into thinking every hand he plays is trash- he will wake up with a monster sometimes, and his goal is to get your chips because you "put him in a range" thinking he is bluffing.

That's why I always ask about (and most OPs don't mention) post-Flop play history. There are a ton of cash game 'spewy whales' who have a ton of poker in them once the Flop comes out. They know their image and they know your range and apply pressure any time they get the opportunity. The pre-Flop image is the set up to some pretty decent play in bloated pots. GL

What does this mean? What's Albert and Maria?

You need to separate the sarcasm from the advice here ... Guess Who is a board game where being 'disguised' is more prevalent to winning the game.

Agreed OP has a 'high risk-high reward' hand (most likely, if it hits) and has played it as such in the hand (passively-weak), but now he is suggesting that he might polarize his line by shoving this River. How often is this going to work? Hero had (and still has) a workable stack once the River flames out.

I had asked OP about V post-Flop play but I didn't ask him how often (or how weak) V gets to showdown. What ArtMcFly is getting at is that chips are valuable to hang onto and one should get away from 'fancy play syndrome' and try to work with hands that are more apt to be winners and thus stay away from high variance spots like this.

It's tough to see a player like this controlling the action. It's tough that they usually have more chips than you do when you finally get them into a spot where you are a heavy favorite. But choosing to play like they do is exactly what they feed off of and they are more used to playing this way than most of us ... Which leads to low percentage plays that rely on unpredicable opponents to 'save' us. GL

lol i'd never heard of it! thanks

One of the best games ever. Much more fun than poker imo.