No stats on villains - this was only like the 8th hand of the session. Villain in MP had limped a couple pots, couldn't remember if BB had even played a hand.

I had plenty of bankroll to take a shot at 20NL.

Cake - $0.20 NL (9 max) - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

UTG: $8.00
UTG+1: $5.80
MP: $15.35
MP+1: $27.37
CO: $18.09
BTN: $10.20
Hero (SB): $20.70
BB: $25.69

Hero posts SB $0.10, BB posts BB $0.20

Pre Flop: ($0.30) Hero has 9 9

fold, fold, MP calls $0.20, fold, fold, fold, Hero calls $0.10, BB checks

Thought about raising here but didn't like being out of position.

Flop: ($0.60, 3 players) T 8 J
Hero bets $0.60, BB calls $0.60, MP calls $0.60

I'm ABSOLUTELY going to stab that pot with an OESD and a pair. Not really thinking about better hands folding or worse hands calling, I just like my odds there. Wish I wasn't out of position, but still, I'm taking it.

Turn: ($2.40, 3 players) 2
Hero checks, BB checks, MP checks

River: ($2.40, 3 players) J
Hero ???

Any J or T beats me here, and there are a few straight possibilities and of course set and two-pair possibilities.

What I can't figure out is what the villains would be calling me with on the flop that they wouldn't be BETTING with on the turn! Two overcards maybe? KQ, AQ, AK? A flush draw? An OESD same as me, like 9x? A gutshot draw?

Here's my dilemma: If one or both of them are slowplaying me and I bet the river I'm just throwing away my bet. But if they're NOT slowplaying and I CHECK the river, since I'm out of position I'm just inviting one of them to collect the dead money.

So what's the correct play here? I can't decide.

Thanks
DTXCF

I think you should c/f the river vs 2 opponents. People are less likely to bluff into 2 players


You should also raise preflop with 99 charge the limper to see a flop. Limpers are bad punish them

raise pre, and make it bigger than normal because you will be out of position.

bet the flop - maybe not so big, better hands are unlikely to fold. Id bet the turn too. If he is still around at the river I would check because he is *likely* to have called down with any T or any J but if he doesnt have those hands, getting 2 streets of value is plenty with this strength of hand

I'm more likely to raise here precisely because I'll be oop and want to at least have the betting lead. In general I'm raising limpers with any kind of hand anyway.

I agree at betting this flop. However, it would be much better to do this with the betting lead.

It's tricky. Your donk bet on the flop represents a set or two pair - both of which just rivered a boat. However, your check on the turn blank makes it look as if you were just stabbing at the flop and have nothing or a pair.

Villains' flop call and turn check represents a J, T or a draw. Obviously a J is not folding now, though they probably won't raise. You might get a T to fold.

On balance, I think I'd make a bet of just over half pot here to make it look as if I'm trying to get as much value as I can with a boat. But I'm snap-folding to a raise.

You wouldn't be worried about throwing away another street of value if at least one of the villains had a J or T? That's really the reason I DIDN'T bet. (Consequence of playing OOP I guess).

I like the goth's line.
Raise pre, bet the flop, check turn, half pot riv, but fold to a raise. (And probably lose to a random 10 when you get called by a fish).

Actually, I'd be tempted to check the flop, which could lead to a free card for our draw. A check-raise might even be good, as it would look so strong that random jacks (and all tens) would often fold, and you'd have a fair bit of equity if you got all in. I'd prefer to have the 9s as a blocker to a flush draw though. It sucks when you get all in with an OESD and villain has a flush draw and over cards.

Thanks as always everyone.

Let me ask a separate yet related question - When are you betting pairs like 88-JJ or even QQ to flat out win the hand vs. to setmine?

In this example, If I'd raised to, say, 6bb (4bb standard plus 2bb for being OOP), that's $1.20, which would actually have given me decent but not great setimining odds considering my stack and villain stacks. Do you make a raise like this even when you're shortstacked, i.e. if I'm down to 60 or 70bb?

I would probably raise KK or AA in that situation and maybe even QQ, but with JJ or lower you're only going to get called by high cards and there's a very high probability of an overcard on the flop. Do you play 88-JJ to try to win the hand outright?

I play every hand to win the pot outright.

When you raise pre-flop, you're not saying "I have pocket 8s". You're saying "I have a strong hand". You don't have to flop a set. If the flop is ace- or king-high, you bet to represent top pair or an overpair. If villain didn't make top pair, then he usually folds. He doesn't know you had an underpair. He thinks you had AK.

The same thing applies with blind steals from the button. I'll raise 65s on the button. Flop comes K9T in two suits, none of which connects with my hand. Big blind checks, I c-bet, he folds. I win with 6 high. Easy game.

EDIT:
Why are you only going to get called by high cards if you raise 99? Does villain know you have 99? Villain's calling range (of your raise) remains the same. He might call with AJs, pocket 4s, or suited connectors like 76s. It's more likely that villain has lower cards if you have a big pair, but hands like 99 and 88 are (arguably) Top 10 hands. They are ahead of every non-pair hand (inc AK) and all smaller pairs.

You're raising versus a limper for 5 reasons:
1. because you don't want the BB to come along for free and double the chance someone outflops you
2. because you don't want the limper to go into the flop with silly hands that could outflop you without paying for the privilege
3. because you want the limper and the BB to define their hands more narrowly (an extension of reasons 1 and 2)
4. because you want the betting lead
5. because you want the ability to represent a stronger hand than you have on a later street

Raise pre, don't bet pot on flop, check turn, c/c river.