Hey all,

I really, really, really am at wits end trying to pivot from Short stacking to "real poker". After yet two more sessions of losing multiple BI's at the micro's (5nl atm) I am about to throw in the towel and go back to short stacking full time.

I got cardrunners in Feb and watched the entire series on micro's by Bryster (sp?) and am 1/2 way through the ones by Veneer (sp?). I have read Fee's guide to 6max. I have trolled the posts. They look great, information makes sense, and I leave with a feeling that yeah this makes great sense.

Problem is I get to the table and continue to win small pots with good hands, lose huge pots with good hands. I watch people playing 60% of there hands go at each other like its Friday Night at the all-you-can-eat buffett and Q high ends up winning a huge pot. Then when I enter the hand with decent cards (read AQ, AK, TT, etc), catch a good flop ie 2 pair and get my money in good, only to have some 70/5 catch a staight or flush on river, or wake up with the lone set I have seen him play all night. Make no mistake, I am not even close to saying the site is rigged, just that I seem to have an inordinate amount of times where my made hands get beat.

So okay these are coolers, bad beats, whatever, I get it "poker happens". The question is I don't ever seem to get the other side, I flop a set and no one wants to play, I win 6-12BB and move on. I can't seem to get the fish to bite.

It is also just frustrating to have like AQ, see a flop of KJ3r, c-bet, get called, turn comes another J, fire second barrel, called, River garbage, check, check guy turns over T's. Switch the situation and I call it down and sure enough guy has a J. Get my K's beat by guy playing J7s and hits a 7 on flop, calls the pot bet and hits his second 7 on turn. I just can not accept that EVERY time these guys playing 60/12 have the 7. Maybe I should, but then I will be folding to every raise or shove?? Doesn't seem profitable. Maybe thats the first major leak.

In addition, I seem to have a wealth of information swimming around in my hand and cant seem to implement.

Examples, Veneer quotes C-bet as one of the biggest leaks as players will learn to c/r the crap out of you. Yet I have heard at micros that thats one of the most important tools to learn where you stand.

Fee says dont use HUD at micros, play your game and get a feel for what 60/40 and 20/17 looks like, cause at higher levels 22/17 can mean so many different things.

Fee also says not to ever bluff in the micro's cause no one will believe ya anyway. I can belive that, but how does that fit with a C-bet a missed board, is that not a bluff?

So I will end this rant with a few questions.

1) At 5nl, 2 tabling, what is a decent session going to yield in bb/100?? what about a good session? And when do you throw in the towel for he night and leave 2BI, 3BI?

2) While I would love to get to Level 3 thinking, I can't even get good at level 1. I don't even understand what my game should look like. So while its great to aspire to Level 2 and 3, what are the basics of simple ABC level 1 play that I am missing?

3) At 5nl and 10nl, do I really just fold to every shove if all I have is TPTK? Cause I see SOOOOO many hands where crap beats crap, but when I catch, I always seem to catch their best. Am I not giving these guys enough credit to read me as somewhat tight and only push good hands against me?

4) Finally, how good of a hand on the flop should I need to shove? I see in the videos they shove TPTK against 70/10 player and always win (duh they wouldnt show the loses). I mean I could make a video if all I needed was 4 good hand examples.

5) I still have 3 weeks of Cardrunenrs left, are there videos of just people playing micros with their thoughts instead of the powerpoint style?

6) Whats the thoughts on c-bet's, how often, how much and would you EVER slow play at the micros.

7) HUD, yes or no for micros?

8) table selection (the meat of the first 4 videos by Veneer) are you really that picky at 5nl and 10 nl where traffic is insane and no table stays together anyway. Or are people jumping around tables to "chase" the right table.

Thanks in advanced for helpful comments.

np

1)5-10BB is good. leave when you feel your not playing your best, or if that doesn't work for you then leave once your down 2 bi's. Theirs always tommarrow.
2) Play more hands and you'll start to get down the basics.
3) Especially at 5nl, (probly at 10nl to?) I would not reccommend folding tptk more than half the time.
4)I'd shove about 90% of the time against a normal player with 2 pair (board unpaired, no flush or str8 possible). I mean theirs a ton of different situations.
5)DOn't know
6)cbet (90% of the time? if your playing tight and most people aren't paying any attention to you i don't see why you shouldn't) kinda small when you don't connect, slowplay maybe 5% of the time(never slowplaying works well also).
7)definately not neccesary, but since your running so bad i'd use all the aid i can get.
8)same as number 7 I guess.

My main suggestions to you would be to
take a break for a few days (i know its hard to do),
Also, I'd definately reccomend switching to 2c holdem for a while.

hope that somewhat helps and keep reading these forums for so much more info

Hopefully I helped.

I do not think you are respecting the opponent. Why are they still betting ? This is the question I ask myself. When you let it get to the river you are allowing them to make their hands. You need to look at where you stand. I see no shame in pulling out of the betting once it looks dangerous.

So every time someone raises, I should fold? I mean that's basically the advice? How much "respect" are you supposed to show a guy playing 70% of his hands who you've seen shove middle pair? I mean they can't always have hit the board perfect. They cant always have a 7 when two 7's are on the board, or for now should I just assume they do and get out of the hand and any sign of trouble. I assume the same when then hold true for any str8 and flush on the board. I would have a hard time accepting that this is true, though it seems to be the case.

No need to Fold at the 1st sign of trouble. But make them pay to see the next card. Also though I should point out I am new to the game but already can see that at the lower levels some people just do not want to let go !

That can make it a bit more of a chance situation but thats the way it goes.

How big a sample of hands have you been running bad over?

That was one of the most honest posts I have ever read Drew.

I hope you are doing better very soon.

I was a member of Cardrunners and it changed my life. There were loads of vids of people simply playing like 4 tables of 0.25/0.50NLHE 6 max and explaining their play. Try and find these vids, Verneer was really good.

From the gist of the post I think you may be so lost that coaching is your next step, do you have any talented friends who could help? Maybe ask on here for tuition.

Also perhaps record some 'average' sessions (not just good or bad) and ask people on here to assess them.

DONT OVERVALUE TPTK or even overpairs!!! this is the biggest cause of people winning small pots and losing big ones. Took me ages to learn this.

The really frustrating thing is I went back to 6 tabling 50nl last night, using Ed's Short Stack Strategy, and netted $50 in a little over an hour. Sucked out once, got sucked out on once and ran within $2 of expected EV.

I can sit there and do that successfully for hours and while not as fun or intense, I make money (i know, i know too results focused).

But as I take the same $10 to a 10nl and try to open up the game I get killed.

Its unreal.

As for sample size I have about 10k hands in micro now. I know thats not a ton, but the way I am going (-20 to -75bb/100 sessions) I am not going to have any bankroll left.

As for dropping to 2nl, I would rather gouge out my eyeballs. I tried it for like 100 hands and about threw my computer across the room at the ridiculous play. If short stacking is not real poker, then 2nl is even farther from real poker.

I would love to have someone "coach" me, but at the moment it would have to be out of the goodness of someones heart, cause the $150 BR is all I have to put towards poker (just got laid off and had to cash out most of BR)

I am definetly swearing off full stacking the micros for a week or so. I will play my SSS and the DON at stars for the meantime and come back to micros in a week, and after I look around more at cardrunners for some more table play type vids.

Thanks

One thing I realized in playing micros and studying books/videos/etc is that the people making the videos or writing the books are (supposedly) good players. Good players are playing at higher levels and therefore get more into thinking about trickier players who can take advantage of basic play. Then that thought process seeps into their discussions of poker - even at the micro level. But at say below 50 NL, or at least 25 NL, you can basically forget about the tricky good players - there just aren't enough of them around.

Basic point is when you read some advice, a) try yo understand it then b) try to determine how much it applies to your level.

Frankly at the micros the best EV is probably just to shove AA,KK,QQ, (maybe JJ too) and AK pre-flop and set mine the other pairs. See free or limped flops with SC's (one and 2 gappers and other paint hands, fold the rest) - value bet them to death when you hit, get out cheaply when you don't. Maybe make small bets at dead money in uncontested pots (depending on opponent)

I would use a HUD so you can quickly learn to differentiate the types of player.

There are various types who require different strategies to beat them. They aren't good players but if you don't understand the appropriate strategy to liberate them from their money you will never progress.

Trying to push a lot of these guys off hands with lots of raises and CB's when you miss is like burning money. Any advice (from training video sites or elsewhere) that tells you different will cost you $$$ and lead to you tearing your hair out.



At micros player types are likely to comprise:

Calling Station (they call with any 2 esp if 'soooted' and won't fold if they hit any piece of the flop). You bet into these guys for value only. If a guy's fold to CB is <40% on flop and turn just don't bother firing if you miss (esp OOP). Maybe in position with an ace flop you can fire if checked to, but that's about it. They are probably the majority player type at the micros.

The Nit - just fire once and give up if they call. Get out of the way if they start raising or betting big. Steal their blinds and they can be floated for profit in position of drawing boards. Watch out for them hitting their sets against your big overpairs.

The Maniac - don't go to war against this guy with marginal hands (he doesn't stop betting). Just play solid hands and stack him when you hit. He will usually do most of the betting for you. This is probably the second most popular type at micro-stakes if you include the slightly watered down version 'the action player'.

The Flat Track Bully - these are the guys who take stabs at pots, raise a lot in position but will fold to 3 bets. They are aggressive but are prepared to fold if they encounter realistic resistance. They are amongst the better players at the micros. They can be bluffed but it pays to pick your moment. If they do 4 bet you pre-flop or raise your CB watch out - they are not maniacs and if they come over the top of aggression usually have a big hand.

you sound like you're well on your way. imho -- i think you are paying too much
attention to the times when you're on the end of a bad beat. true -- you might
hit a stretch of 100,200 hands where things are definitely going against you....

BUT -- if you do a complete session review, just look for all the big pot hands,
and see how you played those out, you may see something different.

i recently completed my weekend analysis ( where I lost horribly ).
I ~thought~ that i was the victim of bad beats -- i was!! losing 2 buy-ins
altogether when my opponent had 4%, 20%, 32% and 44%.

BUT -- i lost 4 times that much spewing myself.... Chasing draws against odds,
overvaluing a 9-high flush and getting stacked by a flush or boat, calling an
all-in with two-pair and getting crushed by a made straight, etc... )

It was an eye-opener, tell you that.

my lesson was --- NERVES are pretty dang important while playing poker.
If mine, anyways, are frazzled, I better go play bubbleshooter...

I re-looked at the sessions in question. For the 5nl and 10nl I am winning a good share of pots in the 10-15bb range (ie I raise get a caller, c-bet, he folds), but losing a lot of larger pots. My W$SD is pathetic at under 37%. But the hands I am taking to show down are TPTK, 2pr and sets. I see a glaring absence of made flushes and straights. I know I am not chasing them farther then the turn if faced with a pot sized of 1/2 pot sized bet on turn.

The thing I notice is my win rate with 2 pair is low. Maybe it really is hust a statistical aberration over 5k hands at 5nl and 10nl, but it seems odd to me. Of more concern is the W$SD, which should be an indication of the strength of the hands I am taking to showdown.

I think the bigger issue is just overall comfort. I am not comfortable trying to play a 20-22/15-17 style game. I am comfortable being the short stacking Nit. Maybe I need to start adding a few hands to my shortstacking game and gradually work from 10/9 SSS Nit to a solid 16/14 game full stacked.

I don't know. but anything is better then losing 4-5 buy in's a day.

Amazing... you just described me I think. Not sure if I'm one of the better players, but I seem to do a lot of those things. From what I gather from videos I've seen of <50NL, this is a good style to assume when you sit down, before you tailor to specific opponents at the table. To the OP: it took me most of last month but I'm beginning to identify the types at the table and how to respond to them best, what ranges to play against them, and when not to play pots with them. I can identify behavior patterns and against more thinking players I can (attempt to) give off subtle but misleading patterns of my own. I've tried switching gears for a single hand to see how the table reacts.

I think if you just classify someone as a generic unthinking person you're going to have a hell of a time cracking him. After all, how could you even attempt to guess a thought process that you're suggesting is random? There are brain waves in every player, however faint... he has a line, whether he knows it or not. I have found in the last month that I have increased the accuracy of making good folds based on how such an apparently unthinking player responds to my actions. The information is all there for you if you pay attention and interpret it correctly... I don't just get a magic light that pops on when suddenly MHING.

But anyway, I guess I'm a flat track bully of some sort. I'm assuming this style requires some changes and conks out by 25NL. I'm at 5NL right now and wondering how well the approach works at 10NL. My initial guess is that I won't find as many tables that cave and show a great initial respect for aggression.

It took me a long time to learn that two pair is a very dangerous hand to play for a big pot. Unless you are in a hand against someone who clearly overplays top pair you should be getting in some good money on the flop and only betting to fend off drawing hands on the turn and river, otherwise you are liable to be building a big pot only to send it to a villain with trips or a boat.

If you feel comfortable doing so, it may help if you post your complete stats.

Some thoughts:
- As a short-stacker, you're used to committing large percentages of your stack on any playable hand. You really need to tone this down with the full stack. Many hands are only going to be playable to the river if you get no resistance.
- Reverse implied odds are a lot more significant with a full stack. Underestimating reverse implied odds may lead you to overplay your TPTK type hands, and may even have an influence on your two pair results (although it's awful hard to lay down two pair in the micros, IMO).
- I think Fee's advice is great once you've established a winning record playing ABC poker, but if you're not playing ABC poker yet, I'd stay away from his guide. Try using a nittier starting hand selection and abusing position instead. I'd also ignore his advice to avoid using HUDs for now. Once you're advanced enough to understand different player types in detail (and I'm not there yet), it may make sense to avoid the HUD to hone those skills, but at the early stages, the HUDs help a lot more than they hurt.

Okay,

How are these for resolutions for next time I decide to try full stack again.

1) Use HUD
2) Try to get to a good 16/14 style of play before I try to open it up to Fee's hand selection style
3) 3-bet more premium hands IP
4) c-bet all but the scarest boards ie monotone, obvious str8's, etc
5) fold more marginal hands including 2pr
6) value bet made hands
7) focus on pot control more

If these sound good, I will commit to 5k hands next week at 5nl and then post stats and some key hands.

Thanks all.

GL

OMG!!!!!1 Online poker is rigged!!!!!!!!1

Good post. Good luck to you. Wondering: have you tried 8-10 tabling at smaller Limits, like 2nl and 5nl?

I find the loss rate of 2-pair hands interesting and have noticed it myself.
Obviously, this is because it is an easily dominated hand. If you are playing
2 broadway or suited connectors, your 2-pair will ALWAYS give someone
else a chance at an open-ended-straight draw.

It is important to pay attention to odds when chasing draws.
A OESD hits about 30% of the time, so unless the implied odds are huge,
and you can get a free card, you might not want to chase for anything
over 1/2 PSB.

However, an OESD and FD will hit over 50%.

And an OESD, FD and 2 overs, ( presuming you're up against only a pair )
will hit 64% of the time.

Pay attention to pot odds, don't give too much credit to implied odds.
I ~do~ like to chase in a 3-way+ pot, though, if I'm in IP. Then the
implied odds are increased and also your chance of getting a free river
card.

I am bleeding money playing 2 or 3 tables of 5nl, cant imagine what 8-10 would do to me.