Do you ever fold kings preflop?

I just finished a decent cashgame session, I had almost doubled my stack on two tables without ever being all in. Then I get dealt KK in the CO. I raise, and it folds around to the button who re-raises me. I raise, and he shoves. Now, this guy had been playing relatively tight. I had been able to steal a few pots from him, but usually when he was in a hand he wouldn't go anywhere.

I don't think I've ever folded KK preflop, but it was really close to being the first time this hand. I said to myself that he HAS to have aces, and tanked for quite some time, and then made a crying call only to see that I was right. He was indeed holding the mortal nuts, and I didn't hit my 2-outer. It's a small satisfaction knowing that I almost made a world class fold, I mean I was really close to actually mucking my kings. But I guess folding KK preflop is unheard of? QQ I've tossed in the bin countless times, but it's alot harder to get rid of the damn cowboys..

The fact that he showed up with aces does not neccesarily mean that you "almost made a world class fold". The reason is that we don't have enough info to conclude that he wouldn't play other hands the same way.

If he would, which is a decent assumption to start with, this would have been a bad fold - and the more hands he'd play the same way, the worse it would have been.

A good thing to do here is to start with the most reasonable assumption you can come up with and then adjust as you get more and more info on the player and/on the field. In this case, it is reasonable to assume that a player would play at least hands like QQ and/or AK the same way.

It might be true that this particular player or some other player that you will encounter in the future will have AA and only AA in this spot's range, but I believe you should rather focus on reducing your most common mistakes versus most common types of opponents rather than worrying about a rather extreme spot vs a very specific type of player - a super nit.

Thanks for a very good reply. I didnt mean it to sound like that when I said "world class". Sprinkle a little bit irony and humor over the phrase, but then again irony doesnt really work in text.

Yeah I mean I think this guy was one of those players who doesnt shove preflop with any worse than KK or AA. I dont even think his range includes QQ or AK suited in this spot, which made it feel like a bad call - even though folding KK sounds just awful.

Im pretty sure I wouldnt have been able to sleep tonight if I mucked em, so I guess its all good. I was just curious to hear if anyone ever folds KK pre - Ive never done it so far.

Did it once, on some TV poker thing. Figured I was about 30-40% to survive hand as it was multiway with three other medium stacks all-in preflop.

I was super short (2.5bb) and in late position close to bubble. Back then I loved mincashing above all else... "getting black ink on the ledger".

Ended up cashing 5th. Perfect way to reinforce that crappy habit.

100BB deep vs 1 player, I never folded KK. Neither would I..
That's just horrible if you start folding KK
Yes you can make this type of folds vs pple that you have a massive sample on their show downs and you KNOW it's AA only
Not likely...

Generally not a fold but stack sizes and reads matter. Also you raised from CO and it folded around to the button...are you playing 20 handed or something?

Simple answer is that if you're asking in BQ you're probably not going to be at the level where you can understand why folding KK pre might be correct, so don't

situations where folding KK pre is correct are so rare and so marginally +ev that by never doing it you wont really be affecting your winrate in a significant way.

That being said, you shouldn't always be looking to just stackoff with KK pre, quite often you will want to flat a 3bet or a 4bet with them - not because AA is a possibility (though it plays a role), but mostly due to combination of opponent overfolding to 4bets/5bets and protecting your own flatting range. However, in a situation described in OP, unless villian is MASSIVE nit, 4bet/calling seems correct.

Think about the response you can get by making an action. You raise and get 3bet, if you 4bet he can call, raise or fold. If he folds nothing happens, if he calls you see a flop and if he raises the decision is all in or fold. You need to have made your decision before you 4bet and then decide how much you like the possible outcomes. If you 4bet and he folds most hands you beat including possible bluffs but he shoves on you with AA then there is no reason to 4bet.

For example many live players only 3bet QQ+ and not even AK. If you get 3bet by that range only 6 of the 15 combinations are hands that you have beat and can get value from. 4betting achieves very little, so don't. Now most players aren't that nitty and will have like TT+/AQs+ and some random spazz etc so you can get value from 4betting kings but that also means you need to be prepared to sometimes call a shove and be on the losing end. Basically the frequency of this spot is so low relative to other ones and the certainty of needing to be right is so high there really is no point thinking it about too much.

I don't see stack sizes but assuming 100bb CO vs button I get in QQ+/AK versus the typical live player. 200BB get in KK+ and sometimes AKs and flat JJ/QQ etc.

For a beginner or an occasional rec/hobby player , never folding KK pre flop is the wise move. You will get caught by AA once in a while , and you will remember those times too much, not all the times when your KKs were good.

Thank you Kelvis ... Great post with multiple points that you can learn from.

I've probably folded KK way more than most Players and I've been 'correct' all but once. Pat on back? Not really but I also let other thought processes 'cloud' my mind during a poker session as well. Only you can decide what you want out of the game and how you will feel mentally going forward in your session.

1) As Kelvis pointed out ... you need to think about these decisions before you are forced to act on these decisions.
2) If I lose (from ahead or behind) how will I react? Will I tilt?
3) If I lose will this guy put these chips back into play so I can get them back?
4) Is there potentially a better spot to get chips from this guy .. or a different part of the table?
5) How important is my current profit?
6) How much longer do I think I'll be playing?
7) Am I here to have fun or really try to turn a profit?
8) What does this guy think I have? (Lots of Players forget that their image counts just as much as what you think of the opponent.)
9) If I fold and show, how will this affect the opponent and the rest of the table for me going forward. Will V tilt? Will the rest of the table play back at me more?

There are plenty of 'no-no's in my list, especially #9, from the classic poker player's handbook ... Never fold KK and never show.

I tend to turn the book upside down at times as part of my game to take Players off their comfortable butts!!

My motto is "Win the war, not every battle." When a general sends in his best troops and they get shellacked it can really throw your 'war' efforts into a tizzy.

There are plenty of 'auto' poker players that sleep just fine at night ... are you one of them? GL

Thank you all for such good replies. Really much more informative and objective than what I was hoping for. To be honest I was expecting to get flamed hard for even asking this.

I'm not exactly a "beginner", but I'm far from a pro or even a great player. Been playing for around 10 years I would think, and not once during these years have I folded kings pre. I was just curious to see what people thought about the idea - and again, I did not expect replies of this caliber. Especially Kelvis and answer20. You both made some good points.

I guess I feel like making a good fold is sometimes almost as sweet as making a good call. But hey like I said, this is not what I do for a living, it's a purely a hobby that I love

I hear you, but I just played a similar hand last wekend. (9 handed) UTG+1 raises, I 3-bet on button, he 4 bets, I shove. he hems and haws and asks if I'll show if he folds.

He ends up folding KK to my.....QQ

There's plenty of people that will shove on an early rereaiser while holding something like AK because there's a decent chance he's just got AK, QQ (or even JJ) and will fold some of that (and be in decent shape if he does call).

I feel KK ist just a hand you will occasionally get stacked with against AA pre. Unless you know that your opponent is a super-nit who only 5bet-shoves aces or kings I'd call this all day every day. (Then again, I play tournament exclusively...and there's just not time enough to 'wait for better spots' than this)

grunch

for what it's worth, this is exactly why you don't "get fancy" with AA preflop. I see so many players who get "scared" to 3-bet their aces because they're afraid the player who raised is just going to fold. Give that KK or QQ a chance to put their stack in the middle because they "don't believe you have AA". Give that AK or AQ a chance to flat your 3-bet and see a flop, or even their TT-66 paying a terrible price to setmine.

You want to maximize the amount of money you can get into the pot while you have a clear equity edge.

I don't think that is a fair response. You could say "yes, there could be situations where it is the correct response, but it depends on many factors." If he wants to explore that, he can.

Much, much safer for a beginner just to get it in, rather than to risk misinterpreting said factors (because, you know, they're a beginner) and making folds that cost you EV

No the thing is he shouldn't. As a beginner it is way better to never fold kings preflop than to try to find out spots where you can fold them. First of all the spot where you can fold occurs so infrequent and the mistake is small, second it is counterproductive when misapplied.

put some calum scott dancing on my own (paul gannon bootleg) on and go all in. dont muck around and just get it all in at all costs.

Unless I misunderstood the action, I think hero's 3 bet could have been a shove. But for me that would require more information. Stack sizes, blind level, but I would also like to know that information to decide whether to fold to his 4 bet shove or call. I don't agree with those who say never. But I would say extremely rarely and only with more information.

Not unheard of, Im also unclear about the preflop action: You open Cutoff and it folds to BTN? Anyway looks like youre facing a 5bet shove live which should be a pretty snug range. I didnt see the stakes or stack size mentioned.

The more you play the more you will run KK into AA. Its not fun. You have to consider player type, stack depth, position and sizing.

Weve all been on the right side and the wrong side. 2 examples of hands where I ran KK into AA in cash.

2/5 Atlantis Reno 2017: Straddle is on. Splashy reg open MP to $40, Young local pro ($1600ish) 3bets to $180 otb, Hero ($1500ish) has KK in BB and 4bets to $590, btn 5bet shoves...Hero calls off remaining stack, asks once or twice, local says once and hero doesnt improve. Btn shows AA, table remarks "weve never seen that before". I potentially could have folded this deep.

$1000 Survivor Canterbury Park 5/10 Blinds
omc ($650) opens utg+1 to $40 (quite large), btn weak tight rec ($2600) 3bets to $125, Hero ($2300) has KK in sb and 4bets to $330, utg+1 jams remaining $650, btn rejams effective all in. Hero tank folds.
utg+1 has QQ
btn has AA
clean board and AA scoops.

I just knew this player was never 6bet iso shoving with a bluff (AQs etc.) and was never doing it with TT-QQ. In the 1st ex the game was a bit looser and ranges are a bit wider (Btn vs BB) but after playing more with this particular player realized he is completely incapable of having a balanced 5bet shove range.

You identified villain as tight, you could potentially find a fold here.

I do it. I know why I do it. You probably shouldn't.

It helps that I play against a lot of the same people, who know me as a tight, competent player and fear me. When your opponent is afraid to raise you without the nuts, sometimes, they only have AA when you have KK.

It would be hard to fold KK to someone you don't have a history with, unless there are multi-way conditions where you know they are not bluffing, but as you learn a player's tendencies, you can sometimes find a tight fold because you know exactly what they have.