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Did you hear that "woooosh" sound just now? That was the point, speeding past you. (LC/NC NSFW) Did you hear that "woooosh" sound just now? That was the point, speeding past you. (LC/NC NSFW)

10-21-2010 , 05:51 AM
Of course if you have KK or QQ, any ace is bad. But what i'm talking about is what kind of flops are bad when you either make your hand or just have an overpair.

I mean if you have QQ and flop comes A K 7, its a disaster. But can someone give me examples of bad flops for QQ where it does not contain ace or king?

For example, if i have 2 black aces or 2 black kings, i say 7 8 9 diamonds is horrible. I also hear people say AA with a board of Q J 10 is horrible as well. But with AK, is K J 8 flop considered pretty safe? Can someone give me examples of flops that are pretty dangerous for AA, KK, QQ, AK and AQ? Of course i don't need to mention pocket pairs like 22-99 because if you don't flop a set you are not in good shape.

But does anyone have more examples with other hands like AJ, KQ, KJ and Q10? Can someone give me some examples of good flops for these hands? Of course having AJ with a flop with j 7 3 is as best as you can get since the board is pretty dry but would like examples where board is sort of dry.
10-21-2010 , 06:08 AM
A lot of the answer will depend on the range that your opponents have. The narrower their range the less problems you might have with a flop that hits a wide range. It really depends on what they did preflop.
10-21-2010 , 06:12 AM
Is this just like EP open raise and cold called or if you 3bet and are called?
10-21-2010 , 06:55 AM
IT DEPENDS.
10-21-2010 , 07:27 AM
Some flops might be great against one player but horrible against another, also if it's a 4bet pot the flop of 789 won't be as bad as it would be in a single raised pot.
10-21-2010 , 10:35 AM
Like everyone else said it's hard to say and can very on your opponent, especially online and what stakes you are playing. If you play small stakes tournaments against a bunch of donks they could just not like the you raised there blind and call you with ATC and flop to pair although that is extremely rare but I have seen it happen. A couple days ago I was playing and a $4/180 tournament and was dealt QQ in early position and made a large raise and got one caller the flop was 874 I bet and got called turn was a K, I didn't like the card but still bet and got called and the river was another 8 I still bet and got called and the person had Q8s, I can seen why he called the be on the flop but it's not a hand you expect to call a large raise so it's hard to say what can all happen against your opponents.
10-21-2010 , 11:02 AM
You got some really good answers, I'll only try to give examples.

"For example, if i have 2 black aces or 2 black kings, i say 7 8 9 diamonds is horrible. I also hear people say AA with a board of Q J 10 is horrible as well. But with AK, is K J 8 flop considered pretty safe?"

Now we shouls assume that you are playing against one opponent.
And that you are playing up to 25nl.
If you have 3-4 callers after the preflop pot raise you should be more careful.

AK on KJ8 is safe, because most of the time the opponent will have Kx, Jx, 8x, or QQ, TT, 99 and still call. QT, T9, 97, and 76 are behind. AA,KJ and K8 and sets are out there but if it happens it happens (and not often).
The main idea is to extract value. At micros you can fold on this flop.

AA on 789d is not so bad. If you opponent has a diamond he would draw to you, and you should bet big to make him make mistakes. But, the main difference with the prev example is that he can have a flush or a straight already. He can draw to a monster with JT(one diamond)--> he has about 60% chance of winning with JT. With AA here you should not be afraid to bet, but be careful not to commit yourself on this flop.

For AA, KK any flop with a straight and flush draw is a bad flop. So here you should bet less, and maybe fold against some opponents to a reraise on the flop.

In the microstakes don't think so much of what flop is good or not. You should bet big all you premium hands, and if you play the aggressively you will win much more than you lose. At micros I fold AA or KK only with a board like 8765, or QJ98, and even then it really depends on the opponent.
At higher stakes it a totally different thing.

My advice: just play like 50-100K hands and you should understand it.
10-21-2010 , 11:40 AM
Well, if you get 3 or more callers preflop pretty much any flop that does not give you a set...

But 3 flushed or connected flops usually mean trouble and be carefull with 2 flushed and 2 connected boards as well. My aces usually get cracked by people that love suited connectors and can't even lay them down after I make a fairly significant raise preflop.
10-21-2010 , 04:56 PM
all dependent on the villain, position and their hand ranges they should/will have in that spot.. somebody limping from utg/mp and you raising out of the blind and getting a ace & king high flop pocket queens isnt that bad of a hand and majority of the time the player will fold and even if they call they usually are on some sort of a draw or slow playing a set rather than having a ace or king.. at times vs certain players qq on a all low card flop getting called on the flop is pretty horrible especially if you were utg with qq, your almost never getting more than 1call from a hand your beating unless maybe 10's or jacks and sets are in villain range too much so its not that comfortable at times, but its all villain, board texture and hand range dependent
10-21-2010 , 06:08 PM
Like many have said, it depends.

What range are you giving your villain(s), and what is the board texture? How many opponents are you facing?

I had AA the other day, 3bet to 25BB and got 2 callers.

Flop came K Q 7r, I bet 35BB, both villains smooth call.

Turn: 2. I checked, One villain bet 110BB, other villain shoves all-in for 200BB, I folded other villain called.

Why did I fold? Well, KK and QQ are DEFINITELY in the range of villains that would call a preflop 3bet of 25BB.

River was a brick. One villain showed AK, other villain showed QQ for a set.

So as you can see, it depends.
10-21-2010 , 09:35 PM
because it all depends I'll just throw out some random sh*tty flops off the top of my head. These are in no particular order, with little thought and are pretty obvious though (basically any coordinated board where you don't have a draw...but so much depends on number of players to the flop, preflop action and opponents playing style that it's almost pointless doing this):

for AA

KQJ
9TJ
KQT

KK
any A
QJ9 if heads up in a 4 bet pot

Actually..the more I do this the more pointless I realise it is becasue the same flop might be good or bad depending on the points listed above....so just gonna stop now.

you're welcome
10-21-2010 , 10:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Victory1
I mean if you have QQ and flop comes A K 7, its a disaster.
It's not a disaster, it just's another opportunity to make the correct play



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jman28
Don't hope your opponent bets the turn so you can checkraise. Don't get mad when he pots the river when you have 3rd pair. Don't pray for a King to flop.

Every card that falls, and every action that your opponent takes is simply another opportunity for you to make the correct decision.

Does that work for anybody?

Why can't I get it to work for me? (Prob because I play nosebleed stakes underrolled and every pot matters too much)

Edit:

To explain further, I'm not saying that you shouldn't call for 1/3 of your stack preflop with 55 praying to flop a set. We all know that.

What I'm saying that every time we miss a card or hit, or they c/r, we shouldnt care at all. It's all the same thing; Just something that happens that we have to respond to.
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