I was in this live tournament the other night and I pick up pocket KK. I raised 3 times the big blind and 3 people call. Everyone checks and it comes to me on the flop. The flop was 1064 and I go all in. 1 guy folds and the other 2 call. 1 guy had A10 and the other guy had 2 pair which was 64. The guy that called my raise with 64 was the big blind. So I got knocked out because of that and I was thinking maybe I should of just went all in before the flop. The reason why I raised 3 times the big blind was because I was trying to get value. I needed more chips and I wanted to finish deeper in the tournament. Was it a bad play? The big blind that called with 64 I thought was dumb.

What was your and your opponents stacksizes in relation to the big blind?

Was that title there all the time? Missed it in that case.

With 7bb left a shove is better than raising 3bb imo. Raising 3bb you are committing yourself to the pot, there's no way you can get out anymore and your opponents should know this. If the others have much bigger stacks than you then the big blind might very well call with a speculative hand in a multiway pot. Had you made it 7bb you would probably still have been called by AT, but 64 would have folded. With a hand like KK you want to get heads up, not to have 3 callers.

all in preflop imo

You only had 7 big blinds left? I would have shoved hands like QJo and T9s when I was down to 15. :/
KK with 7bb is a trivial push. You shouldn't care whether you get "value" calls or not. Calls and folds are both good results for you. Even if the shove got called by AT and he spiked top pair, getting your money in with 40% equity ("two live cards") or more is about all you can hope to do when your stack is relatively small. With KK you'd obviously have more equity than 40%, but don't get bitter about a suck out.

i like all in preflop imo as well

Shove pre

obvious shove pre

you played it best

to explain:

People think you don't want a lot of people in the pot with a hand like KK. That idea comes from deeper play, where our postflop playability is not so good with a bad SPR.

If he is calling 64 to a 3x, but folding to a shove, we want to 3x this all day. Yeah you'll lose more often, but the amount of chips you win when you do win will be much more than enough to cover that.

In general against competent opponents (read: online) you want to be shoving because the 3x looks super strong.

i just read the thread title if you went all-in good if you didn't bad

shove pre

yeah I like how you played it, by the sounds of it they should of folded pre to your 3x.

and yeah I play it the same for obvious reasons.

We are shortstacked itm and you are advocating raising 3x thus ensuring a multiway pot that we lose more often than not when shoving and picking up the blinds and antes at this point would be far more productive? If we are being results oriented, the 64 folds to a shove but the AT probably comes along...

First of all, the results oriented thinking is totally irrelevant. In fact if anything it supports my point since your opponents played more -ev than if you have shoved. The fact that 64 got his last 4 bb in when he was ahead doesn't matter.

The main idea is that you shouldn't be thinking in those terms, 'productive', 'we lose more often than not', you have to think of things in terms of expectation.

If the expectation of shoving KK is better than that is what you should do, but for non of the reasons mentioned above. I play HU so I can't comment with 100% certainty but I would be very surprised if shoving shows better expectation when we are actively expecting our villains to get in more money against our 3x.

Think about if you had the choice between everyone folding and everyone calling. The instinct is to choose the folds because you are probably going to lose the all in. However in reality the fact that you are winning the pot ~20% or w/e it is makes it a way way better option to have everyone call.

+1!

Against bad players that will call 3x with junk and dont understand its a stronger move to 3x instead of shove this play is much better.

Against good regs a shove might be better cus they would think of it as a weaker hand.

In ring games, I will completely agree with the above, in late stage mtt I will agree to disagree.

I agree. The play for late stage MTT would be very different to a ring game. If the objective is to get lot's of callers, why not advocate a min raise rather than 3x?

Your value is having chips. As a SS shoving and getting called by one bigger stack with Ax, lower PP or dominated broadways is your ideal result, not getting called in multiple spots and having your equity slashed.

There was no mention of other stack sizes which means the BB may have been the big stack and actually is the one that played optimally.

i read the title. i didnt need to read anything else.

if you arent ALL in preflop then you played it wrong.

THE ONLY MOVE HERE PREFLOP IS TO SAY....HI... I AM ALL IN. a 3x mve where u have 6x is like. bad. actually it might be okay IF u do it to say, HI I AM RAISING, U WILL CALL WITH Ax AND THE FOLOLOLPOP wont be Axx.

i then read the thread.

nothing changed.

you have KINGS and are short stacked. there is no option. ship. this is so fundamental there is nothing else to say. if you hand like 20BB plus then things MIGHT change.

here, SHIp

just so we are clear, hero has an M of like 7.

IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT BB HAS HERE. HERO HAS A HAND THAT HE ISNT FOLDING. HE HAS AN M of 7 SO HE SHOVES. THERE IS NO OTHER PLAY. THERE IS NO DEBATE. oh and im a limit poker cash game player and even i know what to do here.
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there is no option apart from all in preflop, agreed?

(just so we are clear, if hero is actually good at poker (hero told us he is IN the money) then hero has a shoving range that is actually wide. therefore. lol at ANY argument that isnt shoving preflop here. seriously)

Isn't M more like 4.67, assuming there are no antes?

3x is wrong in MTT late stages, too high these days. 7x is a 100% shove with your hand, KK or AT.

"lol at ANY argument that isnt shoving preflop here. seriously"
+1

HiHeat nailed it. all in or fold. (lol at folding ldo )

meh, i think we agree but the dead horse is getting a flogging. it doesnt matter here. even if hero had 20K and it was 1k/2k it is a clear shove with KK. period. any argument that it isnt a clear shove would need specific reads from op which we dont have.

Can people stop saying that we don't want it 3way vs A10 and 64 with our KK.

To OP: You played it fine, bad luck but wellplayed!

Lol some bad information in this thread. This is an instant shove we have 7bb.

What hand are you waiting for? Shove it and hope someone calls.

You can easily get a call from worse here - as you will be expected to shove with quite a wide range with that stack size in the late stage of the tourney.