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04-20-2012 , 03:05 PM
When did the standard open raise size shrink to 3x bb and how long before everyone is just min raising? When I played micros on stars a year or so ago the default open was 4-5x bb. Now it's 3x....
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04-20-2012 , 06:15 PM
I'm sure you all think this is a "level" but this is a serious question. Is it so when you get 3bet to 3x the original raise when holding a smaller pp you kinda still have odds to call vs. one villain? You don't want to risk as much if you get 3bet and have to fold? Just scared?
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04-20-2012 , 07:50 PM
personally i'm just scared. I'd raise to 1.5x if they let me

Last edited by Suzukishosan; 04-20-2012 at 07:51 PM. Reason: its so i don't lose as much when i fold to 3bets
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04-20-2012 , 09:38 PM
Many reasons.

It makes 3bet bluffing less attractive, since you're only going to win 3bb.
It means I have to defend against less 3bets, because I'm not losing as much when I fold.
It makes the SPR on the flop larger, meaning players are less pot-committed and can bluff more easily.
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04-20-2012 , 10:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noidtymer
When did the standard open raise size shrink to 3x bb and how long before everyone is just min raising? When I played micros on stars a year or so ago the default open was 4-5x bb. Now it's 3x....
I also played on Stars a year or so ago and remember 3xing being the norm, so...
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04-21-2012 , 01:41 AM
3xBB or hitting pot which is slightly more, has been the norm for a long time. I don't ever recall a time when 4-5xbb opens was standard.
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04-21-2012 , 02:37 AM
lol try playing live. 5 to 6 BB is the norm.
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04-21-2012 , 03:34 AM
In online tournaments, the small ball strategy of making "minraise plus" opens has grown in popularity since it was pioneered by Negreanu in the early 2000s. In cash games, the move towards smaller bets has been more gradual. I think there are two main reasons why it's happened.

1. There are fewer calling stations online than there typically are in live games, so you don't have to bet so much to narrow the field and get heads up or take it down pre-flop. A 3bb open these days has as much fold equity as 4bb or 5bb might have done 5 years ago.
2. There are also lots of short-stackers online, and often these are playing a nitty style. A 3bb open (or even a 2.5bb open) will have the same result against them as a 10bb open. They'll either fold (so you win straight away), or they'll want to play for their whole stack by re-raising and getting it in. So if you have a marginal hand on the button and the blinds are short-stacked, you don't really want to open to 3 or 4bb, because if the SS 3-bets, you'll generally have to fold. A 2.5bb or 3bb open minimises your losses when you have a hand you're basically attempting to steal with.

Having said the above, there are still a lot of bad/loose players at 2NL-10NL. They will call opens of 5bb or 6bb with marginal hands (and small pairs, when they don't have good implied odds), so you can actually make bigger opens with monster hands, as you want to play big pots with strong hands against bad players.
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04-21-2012 , 04:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noidtymer
I'm sure you all think this is a "level" but this is a serious question. Is it so when you get 3bet to 3x the original raise when holding a smaller pp you kinda still have odds to call vs. one villain? You don't want to risk as much if you get 3bet and have to fold? Just scared?
I think a lot of it does have to do with people 3betting and if you open to a lower amount and get 3 bet and have to fold then you lose less.

I tend to to raise to larger amounts when I open from EP and lesser amounts when I open from LP ... opponents matter too .... but I guess you can see the reason there for why the raise amounts go down as you approach later position.

Additionally, as you say, if doing, this, you may also be able to call some 3bets IP that you otherwise couldn't call.
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04-21-2012 , 11:27 AM
Those of you with real replies, thanks for them. Of course I get a couple paranoid " omg don't try to level me" 2+2'er replies (otatop, Maso77) but that is to be expected here.
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04-21-2012 , 01:12 PM
Be a little more douchey and condescending.
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04-21-2012 , 04:26 PM
I have been seeing a few 14c opens in 5nl instead of 15c

A 1c saving strategy?
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04-22-2012 , 03:45 AM
A better question is when the hell the flop min raise became the default action? I've experienced this too many times playing Zoom, yes mad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noidtymer
Of course I get a couple paranoid " omg don't try to level me" 2+2'er replies (otatop, Maso77) but that is to be expected here.
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