It's a question. The question is: "if you have an edge, why would you engage in situations where you're hoping to be 48/52 when you can find better spots?"

Mathematically, it's probably correct to be calling if you assign them to a pocket pair but I still reckon players with a decent edge don't have to chuck in 100bb pre-flop to flip either.

Are you updated to the newest hem? Check your hud settings (hud options . player preferences > use for tab and make sure the site says any site. Make sure your poker site settings is saving your hand histories.

this.

op, no need to flip with AK unless u have reads on villan at 5nl. value value value bet the villans there.

*unless its obviously for 40BB or less.

In hem had to use table finder to attach tables for hud to work. Now it works fine.

Just realize with AK that you are only ahead on AQ, vs anything else you are a coinflip for your stack, or severely behind.

Not strictly true, it could be a fish stacking off with suited connectors or people just gambling with other weird hands. But if you consider them to not be a complete fish the hands they're going to chuck 100bb in with will usually end up the way you said.

I guess what I meant was when you get 4bet shoved, or contemplating 4bet shoving over a 3bet against a fairly competent villian (ie not 50/30, those guys I instashove AK), you are usually not getting the best equity, although 4bet shoving vs less than 70bb is still a good move, I would hardly call a 70bb+ 4bet shove pre vs someone I have stats on.

It's not a matter of "are we at least a 51% favorite in the hand" it's a matter of do we have the equity (or fold equity) given the range we are facing.

I agree W0lf, but I would also argue that we have little or no fold equity in NL5 or NL2. 4bets and 5bets at this level are almost always a pocket pair of some shape or size and the fish will absolutely not lay it down to a shove. With this in mind, I do not think anyone should be shoving AK into a 4 or 5bet at NL2 or NL5 unless you feel confident that Villain is an absolute maniac betting and re-betting nearly ATC.

By the time we get to 4 betting... we probably have the equity vs pot odds to be calling/shoving unless their range consists of aces and kings only

And never ever ever rule out fold equity completely. It may be very tiny.. but it is always there.

I know you're right on that, but let's say we 3bet to 10bb's and they shove. If we figure they're on QQ and worse pairs (going to ignore AA/KK as i'm just interested in the math.) How much EV are we losing for not calling the extra 90bb's to flip?

well this is turning out to be a pretty +EV thread

cheers for the interest

wat is table finder?

oh i seem to be able to import hands, although the HUD isnt working yet

i think its coz my computer is mangled so I guess i have to wait til friday to test it properly

AK + FE = +EV.

I am going to go through the 3 hands in an effort to explain why advice like AK is the nuts, or don't stack off with AK for 100bb misses the point entirely. Let me preface this by saying that when you have a hand that is potentially (but not always) worth stacking off with, you need to think of pre-flop as a two-stage game. First, there is the initial bet/raise, in which fold equity plays a big factor; then there is the push/call stage, where dead money is a big factor.

Hand 1:
Hero has AK in MP and open raises. Villain 3-bets. Hero ?
In this portion of the preflop game, Hero has started by making a clear value raise. Many hands worse than AK can call, and even pocket pairs that call will often have to fold to a c-bet. When Villain raises, we need to know a little bit more about his 3-bet tendencies. If Villain's 3-bet range is very narrow (i.e. premium hands), Hero has no FE and is at best flipping with QQ. Folding is a pretty good choice here. If Villain's 3-bet range is wide and he is willing to stack off with hands like AJ or 88, Hero may have enough equity to get it in, given the dead money in the pot. If Villain's 3-bet range is wide and he is only willing to stack off with premium hands, Hero has signficant fold equity, and there is a decent amount of dead money in the pot, so a raise should be profitable.

Hero 4-bets, Villain shoves.

At this point, the decision as to whether to call or not is purely a pot odds question. Hero is likely getting around 2:1 on his call. Play around with pokerstove. Against what range is Hero more than a 2:1 dog? How sure can you be that Villain is limited to that range only?

The point here is that once Hero decides that the 4-bet is a good idea, either for value or to capitalize on FE, he has generally priced himself into calling the shove. The decision in stage 2 should be an easy decision.

Hand 2:

UTG raises, Hero?
First, Hero needs to think about the kinds of hands that UTG will initially raise with, and what hands UTG will continue against Hero's 3-bet with. If UTG's initial raising range is very strong, Hero has little FE and is probably going to face a shove. Since Hero 3-bet, we'll assume that he either has decent FE against UTG or that UTG will call with hands like KQs, AQ, AJs.

Hero 3-bets, The real Villain shoves, Hero?
Again this is just a pot odds situation. The major difference between this hand and Hand 1, however, is that Hero has not put in 1/3 of his stack yet, so he is probably not getting close to 2:1 on his call. Hero still has to ask himself whether Villain's range for 4-betshoving is wide enough to justify the call. Run some stove calculations and see what sort of range Villain would have to be doing this with.

hand 3
Hero raises in EP, Villain 3-bets, Hero ?
To this point, this is the same as Hand 1. Since Hero raised, we will assume that he reasonably believes that the combination of FE + equity when called justifes the move.
Hero 4-bets to 25bb, Villain calls.
Pot is 50bb and the flop comes K,6,5r
With effective stacks of 75bb and a pot of 50bb, the SPR is 1.5, so Hero is committed. Some portion of the time, Villain will have AA, KK, 66 or 55, or AK for the chop. But he also may have KQ sometimes, or at least KQs, and even if a bet only folds out worse, there is enough dead money that denying Villain his 2 or 3 outers isn't a crime. That being said, Hero should think about whether checking will embolden Villain to try to make a move with AQs or to valuecut himself with JJ. I see this hand as more of a post-flop strategy issue than a preflop one.

WP. Please do a COTW on this subject matter as it will help all the people who have difficulty playing AK (including me).

This. Also, when you are holding AK it is less likely your opponent is holding AA or KK. I play AK as agg. as possible pre and obviously it's one of my most profitable hands.

This reminds me of a question I've been holding on to about 4bet sizing.

The advice I typically see about how to size raises, how to size 3bets versus the raise size, and how to size 4bets versus the 3bet size... often leads to a 4bet of around 30BB. I was wondering if you think it's better to try to keep it to 25BB as in your example - or perhaps decide on either 25 or 35 depending on the previous sizes - because of postflop bet sizing issues. The problem at 30BB is that a flop shove is >PSB, but two streets would be <1/2 PSB each. Does this really matter, though, when we are expecting to "just get it in" anyway?

For that matter, does our 4bet sizing significantly affect our ability to 4bet/fold against tighter opponents?

I actually like 4betting to slightly under 1/3 of effective stacks, which is often 30bb. My range for 4-betting is very strong, and I want to get a lot of value out of it. At the same time, I want players who are either maniacs or are otherwise capable of bluff/spew shoving worse hands to think that I am holding back a little and that they have fold equity, so by bettting less than 1/3 of effective stacks, I can preserve that illusion. I am not really troubled by having >PSB on the flop, since, as you said, stacks are going in anyway.

With respect to 4-bet sizing and 4-bet/folding, I am only 4-bet/folding if my 4-bet is a bluff, and I would only bluff with a hand that could clearly fold to a shove, so I don't need to adjust my 4-bet sizing to allow me to get away from a hand. If I felt like 4-betting would give me a tough decision for the rest of my stack, I would either call the 3-bet or fold.

When u start auto import, table manager pops up. Got to table/table finder it tells u what to do.