Lets say i have to call 152 in 361 k pot. Thats a 42 % pot bet. I learned that this means i have to win about 20-25 % of the time to be EV+.

But when i calculate pot odds it says i need about 30 % equity.

Which one is correct?

Thanks

Post in German, I'd understand the question better

Is the pot 361k before or after the 152k bet?

Haha, but the other people wouldnt

Two people are all in. The pot is totally 361 k. I have 152 k and if i call the pot will be 513 k.

(1) 152/361 =0.42
(2) 152/513 = 0.30

(1) So i have to call a 42 % bet? That would mean i need to win about 20-25 %???

(2) This one says 30%. Should i include my stack in the pot?

I thought i knew this 2 years ago...but guess i was wrong.

Are you saying your opponent bet 152k into a 209k pot?
This would be a 72% pot bet then.

Or did your opponent bet 152k into a 361k pot?
This would be a 42% pot bet.


You always add the current pot + your opponents bet + your own call when calculating pot odds.


So in the 1st case, where your opponent bets 152k into a 209k pot.
The total pot is now:
209k (already in the pot)
+ 152k (your opponents bet) (72% pot bet)
+ 152k (your call)
= 513k

Then you divide your call by the total new pot:
152k / 513k = 29%


In the 2nd case, where your opponent bets 152k into a 361k pot:
The total pot is now:
361k (already in the pot)
+ 152k (your opponents bet) (42% pot bet)
+ 152k (your call)
= 665k

Then again your bet divided by the total new pot:
152k / 665k = 23%

Required equity = (call) / (pot after you call)

When the OP has a clear German user name, I guess English isn't their first language, and I can't comprehend their post. I might get what they are asking if they reposted, but I don't have a ****ing clue what they're asking right now

Thanks for your reply. I see that my posts are confusing...

1 player goes all in, another one calls his all in. Now there is 361 k in the pot. Both are all in. I havent put any money in yet. I have 152 k, so would need to call (all in) for my last 152 k in to a 361k pot.


This is the confusing part. According to your formula (152/513) i should call if i think i have more then 30 % equity.

But if you look at this table under Pot Odds Shortcuts its different
https://upswingpoker.com/pot-odds-step-by-step/

The pot is 361 k. Two players are all in. I have to call 152 k (my all in) 152/361 = 42 % pot. Som im facing a 42 % pot bet.

I still dont get what is correct.

This part is wrong.
The % pot bet you face is calculated on the player making the bet vs the pot size.

You're calculating it with the call you have to make vs the pot size after the bets have been added to the pot.

If there is 100 in the pot and someone bets 42, that's a 42% pot size bet.

In this case we would need to know the pot size before the other two players went all-in and both the other two players stack size to calculate the percentage of the pot they bet.


So in your example (with different numbers)
The pot is 16, 1st player goes all in for 42, 2nd player goes all in for 42, you have to call 42

The total pot now, before your call is 100 and you have to call 42
What you're doing is 42 / 100 = 42%, which is wrong, you're not facing a 42% pot bet

What you should be doing is 42 / 16 = 262% pot bet in this example.
Someone bet 42 into a 16 pot.

You are getting a little confused about the X% pot bet. Your situation is nothing like a 42% pot bet, it seems like it is a preflop bet where someone shoves and is called. Most likely the size of the pot was just the amount of the blinds. If each player put in 152, then the 3 of you are putting in 456, and you are putting in 1/3 of that. Since there is about 57K unaccounted for, you would simply do the math on what you need to call divided by the total size of the pot - in this case 152 / 513 or close to 30%. However, he might have bet more than 152, because he has you covered. Then you won't even win the entire amount if you win the hand. So be careful with this.

Don't confuse this with the idea of what percent of the pot was bet- because in this case he bet well over the size of the pot at the time he bet. But think about this - imagine, on the flop the pot was 100, and he bet 42% of the pot. He would bet 42. 42, which is what you have to call, is NOT 42% of the total pot. You would have to call 42, with a pot of 142, which is about 30%. And if someone else calls, the pot would be 184 and you would have to call 42 - which yields a completely different percentage (I'll let you do that math).

Thanks, i think im now getting how to calculate the pot odds. But how does that relate to the table?

According to your formula i should call 30 % of the time. According to the Upswings-table its not 30, its less! When should i use your formula and when should i use Upswings table?



Im usually not this stupid. I love math, but something is confusing here

zukunft

you're focusing on stuff that doesn't matter

whether or not you know you need 30% equity or 40% equity is immaterial because you can't possibly know your exact equity as you don't know the opponent's cards

with things like this, you just need to understand general ranges and ideas, the idea isn't to make a call with 33% equity when you just need 30% - nobody does this, these are pure guidelines and nothing more

but more importantly, i think you're confusing equity with call frequency, that 30% doesn't mean you call 30% of the time, it means you need at least a 30% chance of winning in order to make that call profitably

Are you for real? Dunno if youre joking Isnt that the point of poker, to do the EV+ call? And i know you dont know the cards but you can guess ranges.

And the last one. I guess i should call if i think have over 30 % equity vs their range?

dude i have no idea wtf you've been saying but you shared a chart that doesn't mention call frequency and only talked about it in regards to call frequency - so i had no clue what you're going on about

sorry, i guess i'm a dick for trying to help you, my bad

i'm sure others will be inspired to chime in and help too now that you've shown yourself to be so receptive to responses to your questions

No, youre not a dick. No one said that, Cant imagine that was your interpretation of my post. Im actually think im receptive to responses, since im replying to everyone and trying to learn but whatever.

I just questioned your statement about "the idea isn't to make a call with 33% equity when you just need 30%". Thats is actually the idea in poker, to make the EV+ calls.

you still don't get it

if you get lost in the woods trying to calculate whether it's a 3% edge to call or a -3% edge to fold then you're focusing on all the wrong things - primarily because it's impossible to know this

all you need to know to is: clear fold, clear call and indifference

the indifference spots are where you can adjust based on table meta and villain specific reads

poker already insanely complex and you're making it overly complex for no gain whatsoever - that's very foolish

watch the streams of the top players, you'll see that they never talk in absolutes but rather generalities, they aren't dumbing it down for the audience, they are dumbing it down for their own sake

I think the biggest problem, and one that confuses a lot of people, is that pot odds and equity are very highly related, but are done differently. I may have confused things a little with my post. If the pot is 100, and there is a bet of 42, if you call you will be putting in 42 /(100+42+42) or 42/184 = 22.8%. This is where the Upswing numbers come from. Bear in mind that this is only if there is to be no more betting. If doing pot odds, you would look at getting 142/42 (about 3.4-1) odds, and you would need to have no worse than 3.4-1 odds of winning. Note that 3.4-1 = 1 / (3.4+1) = 1 / 4.4 which is about 22.8%.

So, however you do it, you should come out with the right answer - but you can't just do it with that chart, because if someone else calls you are getting a completely different result.

It would be easier if you used simple numbers and were clear about all of the action.

For example, $20 in pot, villain bets $10, you are getting odds of $30:$10 or 3:1. This requires 25% equity to call.

Note that $10 is 50% of $20 and corresponds to 25% on your chart.

yep, this, the amount of people that want to try to analyse everything down to the 94th significant figure to gain an extra thousandth of a cent in equity is unreal. particularly when they're doing so and completely ignoring stupidly exploitable stuff fish do because maff

Thank you, both of you! Now i understand and see how they are related

People get themselves very, very confused when they start using odds, equity, and EV in the same hand. They are all related, and can be calculated from each other, but each number is different, and is used slightly differently.

First, when defining a bet size in relation to the pot, you are using the size of the pot BEFORE action started on that street. So, for example, in headsup (I am going to simplify your hand to headsup action, as it becomes orders of magnitude more confusing to calculate this when dealing with multiple all-ins and side pots) action, if your call 152K, and the pot, with your opponents bet, is 361K, that means that the pot bevfore action started was 209K.

So, the best was 73% of a pot size bet

So, now let's talk about the different calculations.

To determine how much equity you need, you divide what you have to risk by the total you would win (including your call). That would be 152/(209(pot prior to action)+(152(his bet)+152(your call). This means you need 29.6% equity. Equity is the percent of times, if you ran this hand over and over, that you would expect to win.

Pot odds are the ratio of what you would lose if you lost, to what you would win if you won(not including your call). If you lose, you lose 152. If you win, you win 361. To determine of you should make that call, you estimate how many times you will win and compare it to how many times you will lose. If the pot odds ratio is worse than the the actual odds, then you should not call. For example, lets say that this action is at showdown, and all you have is a bluff catcher. You think he bluffs one out of every 4 times. So the odds of you winning are 1 to 3 (every four hands, you win 1, you lose 3). Your pot odds are 1 to 2.375. So your pot odds do not justify a call.

EV (or expected value) is the weighted average of outcomes and their value, and is really the correct way to evaluate a hand.

So, the chart you listed is correct, your problem is that you calculated the size of the bet relative to the pot incorrectly.

And to Sixfour and Rickroll's point, do not get hung up on the exact percentages of equity required to make a call, as long as you understand the general concept of pot odds, equity required, and EV. To use these tools, you have to estimate opponents ranges, and there is so much ambiguity, especially for a beginner, that all equity or EV calculations are really just rough estimates.