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Commonish annoying spot, what do I do here? Commonish annoying spot, what do I do here?

01-15-2012 , 10:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chad0x00
I was advised to restart HEM withotu *all* my HH's and dont know how to re restart it and get them back.
You should have a folder (or folders) on your PC called "HMArchive" or "HM2Archive".
You can re-import all your hands by telling HEM to search those folders. If you only want to import hands from certain dates, you can go into those folders and pick particular months or even days.
For instance, if you just wanted to import hands from the 10th January, 2012, the folder will typically be found at: C:\HMArchive\2012\01\10
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01-15-2012 , 11:03 PM
@denks yeah ok i see where you're going with this and it does make sense. so i'll rephrase my original point as "betting and getting mostly/only worse hands to fold does not in itself mean the bet is -EV, and conversely, though it might be a +EV bet doesn't make it the most +EV line".

i'll work on making it snappier...
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01-15-2012 , 11:31 PM
@zumby: I think we can both agree on that one
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01-16-2012 , 05:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by munchiedude
i disagree with this comment.

AK is still a drawing hand, if u miss the flop its just Ace high that will not win often enough if there is betting and it goes to showdown.

i feel qualified to say this, as i am a tourney/sng player for many years recently transitioned to cash games and the sheer amount of times ive been stacked with AK is laughable. only now am i learning that AK is nowhere near as strong in cash games as tourneys. The previous poster hit the nail on the head, people do call with wider ranges. Most of the value of AK is gained by getting opponents to fold (harrington on holdem) and when you're 100BB+ deep, FE is simply not there.
You're wrong.

And it sounds worse with you coming from a tourney/sng background as it is even stronger there with the usual smaller stack sizes relative to the blinds.



And of course some fold equity is there. Obviously, the exact opponent matters, but rarely is there no fold equity .... and if there is no fold equity I'm generally very happy to 4bet or w/e with AK cause the guy will call with J6 or w/e (I'm thinking no fold equity means the guy is awful and calls with awful hands). In some spots maybe I only call a first raise with AK, someone nitty tight raises in EP, particularly at full ring. Generally in later positions I'd be re-raising




And honestly basically every single time I hear somebody say that AK is a drawing hand what I hear is: I am not good at poker, I don't understand what is happening. I want 88, not AK. I think 88 is better. AK is a drawing hand. With 88 I already have a pair.



Sub 33 for 88 and be even more ridiculous.

Last edited by Lego05; 01-16-2012 at 05:26 AM.
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01-16-2012 , 07:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by verneer
Play your draw aggressively on this flop.
what draw? A or K?
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01-16-2012 , 07:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwteam
what draw? A or K?
Both. You are drawing to top pair, which will almost certainly be the best hand here.

Also im not sure if you were being serious
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01-16-2012 , 08:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtySmokes
That's from wikipedia, right? While it's true, it's not true to say that Fold Equity does not also exist in cash games.
As pokerstrategy.com puts it: "[Your chance] to win a hand increases as the probability increases that all opponents fold their hands. Since the percent share of the pot that belongs to a player based on the strength of his cards is called pot equity, the percent that belongs to him based on how likely his opponents are to fold is called fold equity."

Indeed. AK was a big loser for me when I started playing nanostakes cash. It took quite a while to turn it into a profitable hand.

Depends on your game (full ring/6max) and your opponents. Open up HEM and go to Reports>Holecards and choose AK. Edit the filters to add "All in pre-flop=true".
At 2NL full ring on Stars, I've only gone all in pre-flop w/ AK a dozen times (lolbad sample size), but it's only won 27.3% of the time and is losing at -2159bb/100. Pokerstars nits only seem to call all-in pre with QQ+.
On 2NL FR on 888, though, there are all sorts of droolers that shove with junk like A6s or KJo. AK all in pre-flop wins for me on 888 at 7500bb/100.

Anyone that auto-shoves AK is not thinking clearly. As with any hand, the best way to play it is "it depends".
yeah thats from wikipedia, and im turning ak into a profitable hand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lego05
You're wrong.

And it sounds worse with you coming from a tourney/sng background as it is even stronger there with the usual smaller stack sizes relative to the blinds.



And of course some fold equity is there. Obviously, the exact opponent matters, but rarely is there no fold equity .... and if there is no fold equity I'm generally very happy to 4bet or w/e with AK cause the guy will call with J6 or w/e (I'm thinking no fold equity means the guy is awful and calls with awful hands). In some spots maybe I only call a first raise with AK, someone nitty tight raises in EP, particularly at full ring. Generally in later positions I'd be re-raising




And honestly basically every single time I hear somebody say that AK is a drawing hand what I hear is: I am not good at poker, I don't understand what is happening. I want 88, not AK. I think 88 is better. AK is a drawing hand. With 88 I already have a pair.



Sub 33 for 88 and be even more ridiculous.
i do not think that im wrong here, AK is a drawing hand and this is from harrington, i wouldnt necesarily think that anyone here can question that he is wrong as thats why he is where he is and we are posting on forums.

what im not saying is that there is zero fold equity. sure there is, thats why c bets with AK on flop work, otherwise noone would fold and c-bets would not work and noone would do it. what i am saying however is that 2 out of 3 times you will miss the flop, c-bet and get called by an underpair or draw. then you have A high, you're either drawing/barreling the turn etc. i appreciate that this is player dependent etc.

making the nut flush or nut straight is obvious and may not get paid off on. I didnt say i prefer 88 or 33 and would play AK by re raising often, but the difference here is stack size and often for tourney players moving to cash, AK is an overplayed hand.

take these examples

1) hero and villain has 15BB, hero has AK, villain has 88. hero pf raises 3BB, villain calls in BB. flop TQ3 rainbow. hero bets 5BB. at this point villain can either shove or fold. peeling a card is -ev IMO and would you risk tourney life with an underpair here?

2) same situ, 100BB stacks, villain is more likely to peel a card, so FE diminishes.

point is, in tourneys, you cannot buyback in and stacks generally shrter where AK plays better as you are guaranteed to see 5 cards to try hit
in cash, you can rebuy, stacks are deeper so villain can and sometimes will float flops to take it away on turn, not a tactic that can be applied to tourney where your short.

am i correct in this thinking? well its served me well. and FYI, i am both a profitable sng and tourney player, so you can take your comment
Quote:
I am not good at poker, I don't understand what is happening. I want 88, not AK. I think 88 is better. AK is a drawing hand. With 88 I already have a pair.
to other players who are more deserving of the title.

bottom line is: play AK, raise with it all day long, but dont overplay it in deep stack situations such as cash as if you miss the flop you only have A high and are even behind to 33 OTF.
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01-16-2012 , 08:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nismo9
Also im not sure if you were being serious
I was serious. Just didnt think AK on that flop is a draw. Literally, it could been, but by draw i understand flush or str8 draw, not blank AK.
Whatever.
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01-16-2012 , 08:25 AM
if you ask any pro now if AK is a drawing hand they will laugh in your face
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01-16-2012 , 08:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Combat Waitress
if you ask any pro now if AK is a drawing hand they will laugh in your face
that's what I meant
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01-16-2012 , 08:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Combat Waitress
if you ask any pro now if AK is a drawing hand they will laugh in your face
Its not a drawing hand as such, and nobody claimed it was a concrete example of a drawing hand.

However given the situation; you have two overs on such a dry board, you are drawing to what is most likely the best hand.

Last edited by nismo9; 01-16-2012 at 08:43 AM.
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01-16-2012 , 08:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Combat Waitress
if you ask any pro now if AK is a drawing hand they will laugh in your face
What if you ask them if deuces are a drawing hand?
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01-16-2012 , 08:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by verneer
What if you ask them if deuces are a drawing hand?
pocket pairs are the nuts ldo. you have a hand before you even see a flop what madness is this?
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01-16-2012 , 08:51 AM
I don't think I really understand your "if you ask any pro now if AK is a drawing hand they will laugh in your face" comment. Could you elaborate please?
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01-16-2012 , 09:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nismo9
Its not a drawing hand as such, and nobody claimed it was a concrete example of a drawing hand.

However given the situation; you have two overs on such a dry board, you are drawing to what is most likely the best hand.
+1. i think thats pretty much hit the nail on the head there. if you miss flop, you are either drawing to the perceived best hand, be it TPTK, nut flush, nut draw etc but OTF if you miss, you only have A high and are behind all pairs and PP.
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01-16-2012 , 09:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by verneer
I don't think I really understand your "if you ask any pro now if AK is a drawing hand they will laugh in your face" comment. Could you elaborate please?
It's ahead of your opponent's range, so it can't be considered a drawing hand

I see your point about 22 tho - it can be either depending on how you play it. However, AK doesn't have this option because playing for implied odds to 1 pair is pretty suboptimal.
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01-16-2012 , 09:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by munchiedude
+1. i think thats pretty much hit the nail on the head there. if you miss flop, you are either drawing to the perceived best hand, be it TPTK, nut flush, nut draw etc but OTF if you miss, you only have A high and are behind all pairs and PP.
you're betting the flop as a semi bluff, because you're drawing if you get called. but only if you get called. you're not drawing as soon as you miss the flop.
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01-16-2012 , 10:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Combat Waitress
you're betting the flop as a semi bluff, because you're drawing if you get called. but only if you get called. you're not drawing as soon as you miss the flop.
sure, i agree with your point there. you're only drawing if you bet and get called. either way, AK = A high that is likely not the winning hand at showdown if assuming you and villain reaches showdown and there is at least a bet and call on flop, turn or river.
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01-16-2012 , 11:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by munchiedude
what i am saying however is that 2 out of 3 times you will miss the flop, c-bet and get called by an underpair or draw.
I agree that 2/3 times you will miss the flop. it doesnt follow that you will always lose those 2/3 times. also, you might win a lot with TPTK vs a lower pair or lose only little *because* you missed the flop. playing AK correctly will make you a lot of money over time.
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01-16-2012 , 02:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chad0x00
I agree that 2/3 times you will miss the flop. it doesnt follow that you will always lose those 2/3 times. also, you might win a lot with TPTK vs a lower pair or lose only little *because* you missed the flop. playing AK correctly will make you a lot of money over time.
i agree, when you miss thats when "poker" comes in, you dont always have to have a hand to win at poker thats what i like about the game.

i also agree that playing AK correctly will make a lot of money over time. my argument is not against AK as i like it however my argument is that AK shouldnt be played like its the friggin nuts and it has much less value in deep stack cash than short stack tourneys.
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01-16-2012 , 03:48 PM
Off course AK is a strong hand preflop as so many of you said, but this is not the argument here. AK is good hand for showdown, but we are not talking about going with it All-in preflop, we are talking about how AK plays postflop.

In cash games it is not unusual for people to call preflop with all kinds of crap (good players too), and if you plan on calling down all streets with A or K on flop on a big drawing board , you are very likely to get stacked.

To get most value out of AK in cash games imo is to call a raise preflop (obv you raise if folded to you) and disguise its strenght, if you hit A or K and your opponent catches a piece of it too, you are likely to win a big pot. Otherwise, when you raise AK preflop, in most situations will either win you a small pot or will get you in all kinds of trouble.

It really amazes me that people are saying otherwise. Imean, why in tournaments when you see AK all you want to do in shove it so that everyone folds, BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANT TO PLAY AK POSTFLOP, why should it be different in cash games where people will call you a lot more with wider ranges, why would they do that, BECAUSE IN TOURNAMENTS YOU CAN NOT REBUY AND IN CASH YOU CAN, and disguised connectors, low pairs for set mining suited gappers and all kinds of crap will win big pots, EXACTLY AGAINST AK.

or you guys are playing capped cash games in which case AK is obv a monster, i am talking about at least 50bb deep. Also, if you are 12 tabling online i understand what you are saying too, you don't mind losing some equity for rb bla bla, but i am talking about lets say one or two tabling or live poker

Last edited by stevdoro; 01-16-2012 at 04:01 PM.
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01-16-2012 , 03:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevdoro
Off course AK is a strong hand preflop as so many of you said, but this is not the argument here. AK is good hand for showdown, but you are not going with it All-in preflop, we are talking about how AK plays postflop.

In cash games it is not unusual for people to call preflop with all kinds of crap, and if you plan on calling down all streets with A or K on flop on a big drawing board , you are very likely to get stacked.

To get most value out of AK in cash games imo is to call a raise preflop (obv you raise if folded to you) and disguise its strenght, if you hit A or K and your opponent catches a piece of it too, you are likely to win a big pot. Otherwise, when you raise AK preflop, in most situations will either win you a small pot or will get you in all kinds of trouble.

It really amazes me that people are saying otherwise. Imean, why in tournaments when you see AK all you want to do in shove it so that everyone folds, BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANT TO PLAY AK POSTFLOP, why should it be different in cash games where people will call you a lot more with wider ranges, why would they do that, BECAUSE IN TOURNAMENTS YOU CAN NOT REBUY AND IN CASH YOU CAN, and disguised connectors, low pairs for set mining suited gappers and all kinds of crap will win big pots, EXACTLY AGAINST AK.
excellent post. it pretty much covers all the points that ive been going on about. i wont debate it anymore, refer to stevdoro's post for future ref!

nice one!
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01-16-2012 , 05:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevdoro
Off course AK is a strong hand preflop as so many of you said, but this is not the argument here. AK is good hand for showdown, but we are not talking about going with it All-in preflop, we are talking about how AK plays postflop.

In cash games it is not unusual for people to call preflop with all kinds of crap (good players too), and if you plan on calling down all streets with A or K on flop on a big drawing board , you are very likely to get stacked.

To get most value out of AK in cash games imo is to call a raise preflop (obv you raise if folded to you) and disguise its strenght, if you hit A or K and your opponent catches a piece of it too, you are likely to win a big pot. Otherwise, when you raise AK preflop, in most situations will either win you a small pot or will get you in all kinds of trouble.

It really amazes me that people are saying otherwise. Imean, why in tournaments when you see AK all you want to do in shove it so that everyone folds, BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANT TO PLAY AK POSTFLOP, why should it be different in cash games where people will call you a lot more with wider ranges, why would they do that, BECAUSE IN TOURNAMENTS YOU CAN NOT REBUY AND IN CASH YOU CAN, and disguised connectors, low pairs for set mining suited gappers and all kinds of crap will win big pots, EXACTLY AGAINST AK.

or you guys are playing capped cash games in which case AK is obv a monster, i am talking about at least 50bb deep. Also, if you are 12 tabling online i understand what you are saying too, you don't mind losing some equity for rb bla bla, but i am talking about lets say one or two tabling or live poker
this gets even worse. now you're advocating not 3betting AK.

if you can 3bet for value, ie if you're ahead of villain's calling range, you should. only call with it when you can't, eg facing an UTG raise from the blinds or IP a small % of the time.

edit: or you're 200bb+
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01-16-2012 , 05:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by munchiedude
sure, i agree with your point there. you're only drawing if you bet and get called. either way, AK = A high that is likely not the winning hand at showdown if assuming you and villain reaches showdown and there is at least a bet and call on flop, turn or river.
if you had AA and you get called by someone who's only calling you to hit 2 pair or better, is AA a drawing hand?
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01-16-2012 , 05:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Combat Waitress
this gets even worse. now you're advocating not 3betting AK.

if you can 3bet for value, ie if you're ahead of villain's calling range, you should. only call with it when you can't, eg facing an UTG raise from the blinds or IP a small % of the time.

edit: or you're 200bb+
its a line that I may take to extract more value from AK, in most cases i would 3-bet AK but don't expect to win very big pots.
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