How is that working out for you? You know it is a losing strategy yet you continue to justify it.

I can assure you that if you raise your KK to $25 or $30 or more if necessary they won't all call. Raise to whatever amount thins the field to 1 or 2 callers. If they still call with 9 high, even better.

I'm a beginning player, too, so maybe I shouldn't be answering, but something about your post struck a cord. There are a lot of really good, experienced players on this thread who want to help you get better (assuming you believe it's possible) so you should listen to them.

When I complained that I was getting too many callers at live 1/2, I was told to raise bigger. It worked. You might be uncomfortable at first but try it. Also, I'll bet not everyone at your table calls too much. Some might fold too much. Observe so you can classify the players so you can exploit their weaknesses. Some people chase draws. So if they are calling and a draw hits and they suddenly start betting, time to fold, even if it's a great hand.

As already mentioned, best thing to do is post hand histories and let the experts comment. Set your ego aside and learn from them.

Mindset of a losing player:

I agree, if I go to $30 they will likely fold, but then I waited for wired kings and only won $12.

I'm fairly certain, if you label yourself the worst avid player in the world that ego isn't the problem.

Did I say raise so much that they all fold?

That's fair, you didn't.


Let's say $25 gets everyone but the guy with the big ace to fold, which I think is a likely scenario. Flop:
A 5 9 rainbow

Villain bets $40.

Losing player mindset: This is exactly why I shouldn't have raised preflop. He wasn't folding that AJ for his entire stack. All that matters is if an A flops or not so see it cheap next time.

OK. You win.

I don't hear that very often!

I chuckled (with you, I hope)

Run the Equity calculation on KK v AJ.

Additionally, can you tell me the percentage of times that the flop has at least one ace?

I believe it depends on whether or not I hold KK.

Actually I couldn't quote you the exact percentage and I'm not going to cheat and Google it. Off the top of my head I'd say it's 12-1 (3) times, so once in four flops does an ace hit?

You are soooooo far off.

1 in 4.4 flops

...but let's go with 1 in 4. So once you give up (you weak tightie) and lose you raise amount. Less than 3 of 4 times you have villain fold your CBet and you win his PF raise call.

The last smidgen? Villain calls your CBet (or raises lol) and hits an ace on the turn what percentage?

So...are we making money by raising PF?

I hear you about the long run, but I don't get to play in the long run. I can only play the hand on the table. If the scenario were KK vs AJ and we got to run it 4.4 times then I wholeheartedly agree with you that the only decision is to raise as much as our opponent would call.

The odds of an ace hitting the turn? Well let me change my logic. There are 47 cards we haven't seen (we aren't 100% our opponent has an ace) so 47-4 or 11.5-1?

I don't understand. Long run play in cash games is optimal, right?

You are correct, but you know that. If you had AA vs 27 would you be willing to wager all the money you have in the world on it? Of course not, even though in the long run you are going to be a big winner if you only get to play the hand in front of you it would be suicide to bet everything when 27 could still win.

I equate it to laying big chalk on a heavy favorite at the sportsbook. I don't know if you follow European Football (soccer in America), but would you lay -500 on Liverpool to beat a team like West Brom?

Liverpool is certainly the better team on offense and defense, but this past Wednesday you would have lost that bet. If I got to bet on Liverpool every week against WBA then I would gladly lay -500 every week as long as the book would let me. In the one and done scenario (that we do face every hand) of this past Wednesday I couldn't do it, and am glad I didn't even though in the long run it would be a good play.

Again, I'm giving you "loser thinking" and am in no way telling you you are wrong, just that this is the mindset of a player like me.


I would be willing to argue with the experts though that the long run never really gets here.

Since you are a recreational player like me, I will give you a tip that may led to more enjoyment of the game.

Play over-rolled.

Have a bankroll of about 100 buy-ins. If that means you need to drop down a level or two, I suggest doing just that. Having that much of a cushion will allow you the freedom of playing correct odds-based poker without worrying about the many times you lose when ahead on 60/40 type hands.

He said he's not worried about the money.

To be fair, I didn't say exactly that. I did say $8K was within the acceptable loss range for the year and that I hate losing more than I hate losing the money, but that was not meant to fool anyone into thinking the money does not matter.

Of course it matters.

OK. Fair enough. But we don't seem to be getting anywhere here. If your point was to allow people to see into the mind of a losing player, I think you have achieved that goal admirably.

I can't tell for sure if you are a serious poster, BUT if you are, I have a question. As a recreational player are you having fun playing poker? That's really the end game for an occasional rec player honestly. It is more fun to win, certainly, but enjoying the time you get at the tables is the main reward for semi serious players. Some folks make some or a little money , some break even, most lose a little. If you are not enjoying the game you simply need to improve or quit and get another hobby.

You misunderstand. I didn't ask for that information because we should know it and then raise, I asked because QJs is not a mandatory raise. Depending on various factors in your hand I might overlimp, raise into limpers, overcall, fold to a raise or 3bet (last two much less often). Forget about other players calling anyway for a second and focus on the basics, then make good decisions. You're saying "I know what to do you and then don't do it" - actually it looks like that you don't know what to do and then you call.

I mean, that's not correct thinking but again, you need to look at the basics before you get to the point of deciding what to do.

Well then I suggest cheap tournaments to see if that fixes your risk aversion.

Yeah, sometimes you have the world preflop and then not much postflop. You can win hands with KK even with an A on board though, sometimes no-one really likes their chances and you get a lot of checks, maybe call one stab or make a thin value bet OTR. Or flop a nice draw or a set obviously.

More importantly, usually there is not an A OTF and even if there is, doesn't mean they have an Ace anyway. Of course, sometimes they will.

Point is, you make correct decisions and live with the fact that sometimes you lose the hand anyway.

1. Have you read Jared Tendler's Mental Game of Poker? I am assuming by now you have some basic tactical knowledge, you just aren't applying it. There may be some stuff in the book that helps; if it wins you literally just one single pot, it'll pay back your investment. Furthermore, I've found (as a successful rec) that the lessons from poker that I can carry over into the real world are more valuable than a couple extra bucks.

2. A question to perhaps move us off the advice-giving and back into the AMA you may have intended: It soulds like you already play pretty passive, but are there spots where you go easy on a V simply because he is a nice/chatty person?

Yes, the thread is serious. I honestly thought it would help if a losing player was open and honest about their thought process at the table.

Why do I play? I certainly enjoy it, but the enjoyment fades as you realize you can't win. Most pit players (and all should) know they can't win in the long run, but play for the thrill of winning something in the short term. The realization that I can't win short term, long term or even hope to improve sucks the fun out of it. As such, I have decided to quit playing.

1. I have not read that book, several others, but not that one.

2. No, at least I don't think so. It's pretty easy for someone like me regardless of the opponent, either I have the nuts or I don't. If I don't, they might. I think I have done the opposite where I try to take the max off a weak player who I know just couldn't fold third pair.

I think the bigger problem for us losing players is it's always about our cards and never about the opponent. If I had to tell you what I thought my opponent had when he bet into me on the river I would tell you I didn't know but it was probably better than top pair. Sometimes it was, more often it likely wasn't but the embarrassment of being wrong is too much to risk.

I think this is a good example:

Young kid sits down to my right and gets dealt into the first hand (don't have to post in this room to get cards when you sit down). I have KQ on the button and 3-4 players limp including the young kid. Flop is A A Q, it checks around to me and I bet $20, on the the kid calls. Turn is another A and it checks to me, I check as well. River is a brick and the young kid bets $100 into a pot of roughly $50. I know damn well he doesn't have the A, but I can't make the call because MAYBE he does have the ace.

That's a call that needs made nearly 100% of the time, but I don't make it. After I fold the dealer asks if he wants to show his hand for the high hand promo (one card in your hand qualifies and the current high hand is four 6's). Before he can answer I say "of course he doesn't want to show, he doesn't have it". He laughs and mucks his cards.

Pensfan,

After reviewing the thread my advice is to review the basics of poker. It doesn't seem to me as if you understand the fundamentals.

For example, review pot odds and outs. This helps you make straight math based decisions.

Review probability and statistics. How often will you flop a set with a pocket pair? How often will you hit that set by the river? Again, helps with math based decisions. If you have pocket tens, how often will an overcard flop?

Understand position, starting hand charts and ranges. Incorporate that information on the reads of the players you are against and use it for your own foundation, to start.

You're playing a game with a lot of Second level thinkers, at best, at $1/3. Use position and aggression to your benefit. Scary, wet flop in position and everyone checks to you - what do you do? If you get a caller, what do you do?

Have a plan of action and stick with it unless new information makes you reevaluate a new course of action.

There's lots of advice to give, but for you I think you need to read up on the basics, fundamentals of poker.

the kq hand is actually a very standard fold, you need a very specific read to call that. I concur with:

Well , OK then, no fun, then give it up! Find something else that's more to your tastes!