2+2 copyright infringement ban, IMO. I wish I weren't on my cell phone, cuz the following would look prettier. Timmer: ( ) Knows enough about poker to continue making strategy posts. ( ) Will win big in small-stakes hold'em with expert play. (x) Completely and totally misses the point.

Yes...which you should be READING...quietly.

Timmer,

the main reason that using SSHE as a guideline is bad is that SSHE is, as Lego pointed out, a limit book. What might be a decent play in limit can very easily be an awfull play in no limit.

Add to that the game has changed a lot since it was first published and the games has changed a lot since then I wouldn't use it as more than a starting book for a beginner. The book isn't going to win in above microstakes limit games today afaik.

I'm no maths expert but there's something fundamentally flawed with this line of thought.

In this situation you are a loser and the aggressive raising guy is a winner.

Why I hear you cry?

Because you only hit your set one in eight times and if he's raising with trash you're not going to stack him when you do. In other words this is terrible terrible advice, awful logic and just downright wishful thinking.

[ ] The above happens in Reality all the time
[x] The above is wishful thinking and bad logic.

I don't really know how to answer you. I mean the things you are quoting are talking about an entirely different game than what everybody else is talking about.

And it was written a long time ago (btw 2004 is I believe the date they published a second edition or did a republishing or something .... it's not when the book was originally written). And I presume it was mostly written for the typical live (not online) play back at that time.

I don't really know how to play limit holdem too well, but if I had to guess on the subject my guess would be that most of the good winners nowadays (particularly online) don't do too much open limping either.



I don't have SSHE .... I don't really play the game that SSHE is about. I mainly play No Limit Holdem. So I won't be spending the day studying this book.

You can call these raises, but it depends. Pocket pairs and suited connectors can be good if you have good implied odds. Also hands like AQ,KQ,AJ and stuff if the PFR has a sufficiently wide range.

To setmine with pocket pairs you need to on average be able to get ~11.7X your pre-flop investment into the pot after you hit a set to make pure setmining profitable.

For suited connectors:

http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/show...fpart=all&vc=1

Browsing through the weekly concepts sticky, I came across this article on when to cold call that might be relevant.

in 6 max games i think raising is best for most spots, unless deep stacked but full ring games i actually like calling with decent hands when i think my opponents are betting lighter & my hand has good equity vs their range plus isnt dominated, ima newb but thats just me though

if u think that calling is between folding and raising, ur thinking about the game the wrong way. ur not playing the cards ur playin the player. u make money not from having cards but from gaining free information and knowing what to do in postflop situations.

Did you read the post?

Yes at low limits call a lot with speculative hands in multiplayer pots... if you believe your better than your opponents your seeing flops for cheap and seducing your opponents into making a mistake when the flop hits u great and it hits them good... but you wont give the inferior players that chance if you raise preflop with marginal hands cause theyll fold.

Oh yeah and even if u miss ur in position hopefully and a bet will usually take it down in a 2 to 3 player pot

I read so much bad advice in this thread, therefore I gonna repost the link that someone posted on the first page:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/32...sively-166132/

Read this and read it good.

yes I did read the post... did you read it? The post is pure wishful thinking that has been created to suit the argument he put forward. Just look at how many things have to happen for it to be realistic.

1. 'Hero' has to hit his set
2. Villain Has to have a K (high card) in his hand
3. Villain has to hit his K (high card) on the flop as well as hero making his set.
4. There must not be an A on the flop or turn for Villain to commit.
5. Villain must always stack off with TP

Rubbish.

yeah. did you understand it?

I play nanostakes, so everything i say is related to that.

Villain doesn't have to have a K, that was an example.

Villains do stack off with TPNK (sometimes draws and second pair)

Yes we have to hit a set, when we do we can get villains stack (See implied odds)

I never said that the example wasn't the perfect scenario, but in my experience limping with small-mid PP in early positions work.

Maybe you know better than this guy then?

I said it was in my experience, and there are a lot of stupid players and maybe you shouldn't believe something just because it was posted on 2p2 (I'm not knocking WCGRider)

If you can't setmine against people who stack off with TP who can you setmine against?

EDIT: iirc WGCrider says that you raise pre to take down the pot OTF even when you don't hit. In the example given you will not take down the pot with a cbet.


Bartlett, i agree it's table dependent, but as i said i play nanostakes, i can't speak for micro stakes (25 and 50NL). There are a lot of fish who stack off extremely light. Are they good table conditions?

Completely table dependent. At a table full of fish this can work. But if you have some decent players behind you, they're probably going to make your life miserable when you keep trying to limp in.

I'm at 10nl on Party Poker and there are very few people willing to get it in with TPGK unless they're total droolers.

Again I said in my experience and in the example there was somebody willing to stack off light, as well as two stations.

When you are pre-flop, think about the kinds of situations that will be profitable for you. Look at your opponents, gauge their weaknesses, and think about what sorts of hands/action can get you in a good position to exploit them.

For example, some profitable spots to look out for are:

Multiway with a hand like a pocket pair or suited connector and sufficiently deep effective stacks. These pots have a lot of impled odds potential, particularly if the other players are droolers and/or the pfr has a tight range and can’t let go of a premium hand after he meets resistance. You have the added benefit of being in a “protected pot” – i.e. the presence of loose callers will help keep the pfr honest and may permit you to draw for free. Being in position helps you extract when you hit, but remember that having relative position (i.e. 1-2 callers between the pfr and you) is good too.

Head’s up in position against a weak-tight player with either a pocket pair or suited connectors. With a pocket pair, you have some showdown value, and Villain will often play his hand face up after the flop. With suited connectors, you will often have quite a bit of equity even when behind, which can lead to good floating/semi-bluffing opportunities.

Head’s up in position with a top pair type hand against a player with a wide pfr range. As long as Villain isn’t so aggro that you have to worry about being triple-barrelled off top pair, you will often be able to snap off a c-bet/2nd barrell when you hit your hand, and you have position to help win the battle of when you both miss.

Flatting the pfr to get yourself into these post-flop situations is fine, provided you have a plan to maximize value or make a move for the pot, given the right board/Villain tendencies.

Many many thanks to all of you for you responses! I didn't mean to start such a heated debate going but it's good to hear so many ideas. It is quite a bit to go through and I'm afraid a lot of the subtleties of the arguments are lost on me at the moment.
However, all things considered, I am going to go with the point of view that says limping is not a good plan. I'll see how it goes for a while.

Having said that, a large part of my problem is that I am playing at 2NL. There is so much fold equity that re-raising often ends the hand right there and then. Which is better than losing the hand or getting stuck in something complicated but sometimes I feel I have missed out by not being able to play a good pocket pair.

This was the main reason I have been calling because I wanted to try and keep people in the pot when I know they play very loose and I have a good hand. However, in the interest of learning the basics before I start getting to smart for my own good I'll stick to playing the way I should be.