Okay, am trying to beat the right perspective into my head. I know it may vary slightly per playing style but here's a couple of questions I'm mulling over:


Harrington states that if you are on a big drawing hand you should never c-bet, and give your opponent another opportunity to push you out of the pot.

Flop comes and I've got OESD, and 4 to a flush I've been c-betting. I've been of the mindset that you want to grow the pot.

My main idea has been to grow pots on drawing hands slowly throughout and dramatically once I hit my hand. On the opposite side, if I hit a flop well with a set, trips good kicker, idiot end of a straight, TPTK, etc.. I'm playing these faster.

To give you an example, I might c-bet 3/4 the pot on the first example, and c-bet 1.5 the pot size on the second to make someone else pay for any draws/suckouts which might hit.

Also, Harrington was stating that he never c-bets with 3+ people seeing the flop. I have, but it depends on the flop, the position, and one key tell is if people are checking the auto-check button. That immediately tells me they hit crap.

One futher point is that, at the micros I've seen a ton of people betting 1/0th the pot size for some reason consistently. I've raised these and took the pot down at least 80% of the time. I've usually get away from this because smaller bets are out there to induce reraises when someone hits big.

How does this play in higher limits on the tiny bet sizes? Usually something to get away from?

I like the donkbet on a big draw (obviously an OESD+FD when you have +50% to win) like nut flush or straight draw. Not only does it build the pot, but there is always the chance of your opponent folding- which is very likely to happen.

Where I won't c-bet is if I have an underpair like 99 and the flop comes AQ10 to a raised pot. I will c-bet low dry boards that my opponent shouldn't be hitting with his raising range and I will c-bet scary paired boards because they fold often there (25-50NL).

I don't like to change my c-betting strategy between flopped set and drawing hand because it's too easy to pinpoint. C-bet the same with junk bluff as you do a set as you do a drawing hand..given they all have the same circumstance. If you have the best hand and a draw is on the board for your opponent, this may be a time to c-bet more to price them out.

So I understand the terms here.. you're saying it's a crap play, but works in this situation?

I guess there's so much freaking "donkey" terms throughout, I don't want to mistranslate while I'm learning.

donkbet has a specific meaning: it is betting into the preflop raiser, and it has its place - it isn't only a donkey move.

It is called a donk bet because it signifies weakness or a lack of understanding of how to get the most value. You expect the preflop raiser to continuation bet, so to get the most value you should check raise. I think donkbet has stuck because "donking" is quicker to say than "leading into the preflop raiser".

Of course if you suspect the preflop raiser is likely to check behind and want to build the pot, then a "donkbet" is likely to be the best play.

lol

lol harrington. cbetting is totally opponent dependent.

lol Harrington.

Is this from HoC?

If so, unread that book.

i think you might be mis-interpreting what harrington says.

you want to be cbetting your big hands/ draws though as standard. trying to go for check/ raises etc is just too tricky and misses a lot of value when people check back hands that would call a bet (middle pair etc)

No he was specifically stating you want to see the turn for free. He did say though that this was with a few people in the pot and you are in position. I just don't see how you would be getting full value when you hit your draw.

i have read all 5 harrington on hold'ems (tourney ones and cash ones), and i dont think he said that is the way you are interpreting.

can you post the hand examples he gave where he would check instead of cbet?

Volume II - Expert Strategy for No-Limit Tournaments - Page 9 last paragraph "The quality of your hand is important."

This continues on to page 10.

As I said, he did state that this was when you are in position, and there were a few people in the pot.

ahhhh my friend has that book atm i wanted to look it up lol.

tournaments are a little different because of stack sizes it can be arkward to cbet for fear of getting check raised or for fear of inflating the pot too much for later streets.

i would be cbetting most draws though purely because a lot of them dont have showdown value (i.e. unless you improve then you wont win with a showdown) so therefore you want to take down the pot.

the logic of trying to make a pot grow when you have a draw is pretty bad imo, purely because you are going to miss more times than hit.

also, varying your cbet size based on the strength of your hand isnt particularly good idea either, especially as from your example it would seem that you are more likely to encourage callers when you have a draw, and more likely to encourage folds when you have a hand

Isn't this why the pot needs to be sizable? I don't mean overbetting, but 1/2 - 3/4 pot bets. You either take down a pot, or have someone calling you to the river where you can get paid off. You can make a larger bet on the river and get a call when you hit the draw because of the bet/pot size ratio is there.


TPTK, I want them folding on the flop no? Draws I want callers?


I might be an idiot here, but that's why I'm posting. What seems obvious to me to be correct may be something you just showed me is radically wrong.

wtf?? You have TPTK, you want to get called by worse hands, with draws, you want them to fold since you have nothing at the moment, so you bet as a semibluff.

Since most hands at showdown win with 2 pair or better, TPTK loses value as you get close to the showdown.

The larger the pot, the more it will cost to chase someone out.


Look I believe you and Jack. I've read both of your posts on several issues, and have a ton of respect for both of you.

So I'm really trying to hammer this out and wrap my head around it. Am I an idiot.. perhaps.. lol .. but I'm gonna keep pluggin away until I'm not.

its probably easier to discuss via an example so here one off the top of my head. you used tournaments so i will use that example...

we have, say, 5k in tourney chips and everyone covers us (not by much, we arent shortstacked or anything, but yea).

blinds are 100/200, so we have 25 big blinds, or an M of about 16.

we raise on the button to 500, and big blind calls. just us two to the flop.

flop: T 9 6

pot = 1100.

whats your plan (and why) with:

1) 78

2) A2

3) 66

4) AT

5) A A

6) K7

consider what big blinds range for flat calling your button open is, what hands he can call a cbet by you with, and how his check/calling or check/raising range will change based on what you bet.

also consider how big the pot will be based on various scenario's of which sizes you bet.

also consider our equity in the pot vs the range that you give him (the range you give him after you decide on how his range adjusts depending on what you bet)

i feel it's okay to "value c-bet" your good draws, esp. when it's HU to the flop. only exception maybe when villain has 3bet preflop and may reraise if u bet. in that case, check/call is probably the best line.

with a hand like TPTK, u generally want to value bet each street unless the board texture starts to get scary or the villain plays back at you. it's not a black and white situation where it's safe to think, "oh, TPTK i wanna chase all draws away and with draws i want callers"

true, u want to slowly build a pot so that it pays off when u hit ur draw, but u shouldn't mind taking it down right then and there. try and set a fair price for ur draws yourself - this can even be done OOP against the right villains. just don't make it too obvious or u will get played back at with no choice but to call with ur new odds.

This is where you out me as an idiot

Ok I'll gamble...

In each of the hands the following is considered:

Relatively similar stack sizes so no situation will be a huge stack preying on the small stack.

Villain calls me out of position for 300 more. He was getting 8 to 3 odds on his money.

I'm assuming AQ+ JJ+ to call me here, with a smaller chance of 66-TT in which case he'll be very likely to drop this hand if it doesn't hit and look to get paid off if it does.

(Assuming he wasn't extremely aggressive)

1) 78

I hit the nut straight, but I expect a reasonable chance he has an overpair, or a set. In which case I want to get as much money in the middle as possible. AJ isn't going to pay me off yet.

I'll put out 1/3rd the pot and hope for a re-raise that I can come over the top with.



2) A2

Nut Flush draw, I'll throw out 1/2 pot sized bet. This would be my C-bet as I lead out. Any reraise I could put him on a set and dump this easily. A call I get a card, and probably having him check the turn to show me the river for free.



3) 66

There is a slight chance of an overset, I'd put out a pot sized bet, and toss it on a shove. This would put me back 3600, but still enough in chips to double up without being less then 1/10th the BB.

Not get kicked out of the tourney and not putting myself short stacked here I believe adds enough value to toss out this sized bet and still dump it.

4) AT

TPTK, I would bet out here to get more information. I would have to put out 1/2 - 3/4 pot sized bet to chase off any flush draws, and again could dump this with signs of overpair or a set.

5) A A

I might check here. I have an overpair and showing weakness allows me to get free information on the turn. His next bet is going to tell me more of what he hit.

Overpair: He will try to chase out draws with 1/2 to 3/4 bet where I can shove on.
Set: Looking for a min bet on the turn and larger bet on the river.
Flush Draw: He will toss out a 1/2 bet and check the turn if he misses.


6) K7

3/4 pot bet. For a couple of reasons. I am no worse off being down to 4500 that I would be at 3800 in chips. 3/4 of the pot is enough to push him to reraise with a set, push out the draws, and he still doesn't know where I am on the turn which I have position on.


Man.. this was a good thought process. But this is how I think as of now.

ok heres my attempt at the same thing which i wrote when i made the example:

im going to assume a normal opponent as obviously is impossible to do analysis vs a fish really.

im doing this all via a tool from www.pokerstove.com which is a programme where u can calculate equity vs ranges of hands.

my estimations of his range for flatting pre flop getting odds of 300 into 800, or over 2:1 would be:

1) 55-TT, all suited connectors from 65s-KQs, 2 gappers T8s-KJs, KTs, A9s-AJs, AJo/ATo, off suit connectors 98o-KQo, KJo

2) i expect him to 3bet JJ+, AQ and AK since our button opening range is going to be wide.

3) on the flop you are probably getting check raised by... 2 pairs, sets, straights, flush draws, QJ.

4) he is probably check/calling a standard cbet with any pair, any gutshot straight draw or pair+ gutshot.

5) he is probably folding the rest of hands.



im only going to consider betting 2/3rds pot as a cbet because im lazy....

our equity vs his check/raising range with each hand looks like this:


1) 78o = 70%

2) A2 = 46%

3) 66 = 63%

4) ATo = 35%

5) AA = 43%

6) K7s = 29%


so basically if you bet any hand except ATo and K7s (K7s is basically me asking what you would do with air) then you cant fold to the check/raise. you are getting all the money in with the flush draw/ overpair/ sets


our equity vs his check/calling range is:

1) 78o = 87%

2) A2 = 51%

3) 66 = 86%

4) ATo = 65%

5) AA = 72%

6) K7s = 25%


you should be wanting to keep him in the pot one way or the other, unless you have air obviously.

however from the range of hands that call pre flop, most of them hit this board in some way, its actually about 85% of his pre flop range which is check/calling this flop, so you dont want to be cbetting it as a bluff ever.

the point also is that trying to build a pot with a flush draw is worse than trying to build a pot with a nuts type hand, because you have a lot more equity in the pot with your sets etc. you want to build the biggest pots when u have a massive equity edge and keep it small when your equity edge is small.

you also need to think about what you hand looks like to your opponents, because although you might think they are ******s, mostly they will be trying to put you on a hand and work out if they can beat it. when you raise the button you can have a really wide range of hands, same as cbetting this flop. so dont give your opponent too much respect when you get action unless u know him to be an uber nit

I'm surprised to see the range of hands you put him on I guess is the most alarming thing I may need to rethink.

This is late in a tourney and he's out of position to someone representing a strong hand.

2 gappers T8s-KJs, KTs, A9s-AJs, AJo/ATo

and some of the smaller connected suited cards I would not have put him on as an average player.. maybe a loose aggressive type.

Also, this kind of leans toward what I was saying with A2.

When there is a check raise I can dump this as I know I'm behind. However, a check call puts me in a great spot since I'm slightly ahead, but you're opening up the preflop range to include a whole slew of other flush draws I didn't consider.

The chance I can get him in with a weaker flush increases with your range. Doesn't that make this still a good c-bet?

it doesnt really matter about what stage of a tournament it is, its more the fact that we make a button open which is where we will be at our loosest, and should be raising all kinds of junk to steal the blinds. he is getting a good price to call and see a flop so he will probably play quite a wide range. he will also be 3betting you as a bluff sometimes too.

like i said, you need to adjust the range based on player, but i think that if you're viewed as a fairly standard player who's opening wide on the button, and hes a fairly standard player, then he should be defending to a 2.5x open pretty widely.

also, you dont have to fold to a check/raise with a flush draw because you have 40% equity in the pot and you will be getting about 3:1 pot odds.

it is a good cbet with the flush draw, yes, but the point is that you have a lot more equity in the pot with your made hands and therefore should be more inclined to bet them. you should certainly be wanting to bet more with your made hands than you would with a flush draw anyway

I see you point, and I understand the made hands are stronger here. But they can also hold up throughout. Whereas draws become weaker when they miss.

I know I'm caught up on this perception, however I did notice I answered your question where the flush draw was a mid range bet on the flop.

Specifically, which response stuck out the most as a leak then?

saying you would fold 66 to a shove if you bet. i thought this was a level when i 1st read it, because considering folding a set is pretty ludicrous in my opinion and you can see by the range of hands he should/ will be check raising the flop with.

saying you would bet AT 'for information'. betting for information shouldnt particularly be a part of your thought process. yes, if he raises you have found out you're beat so you have gained some information, but that isnt the primary reason of betting.

when you have a strong hand you should bet until you are told to stop (i.e. he raises). TPTK is a pretty strong hand against his check/calling range so even though you will fold it to a raise, you get plenty of value from betting because he will call you down with worse hands such as JT etc.

with AT, i would bet like 750 on the flop. if he calls, pot would become 1100+750+750 = 2500, and we would have 3750 left in our stack.

if the turn is a brick, our equity goes up incredibly because his draws/ 1 pair hands are sooo far behind us now.

id again bet about 1500, and then on a blank river id shove for the last 2250.

Excellent - thanks very much. I'll let this thread die off for now and soak up some of the information in here.

I'm still a long way off from thinking along the same lines, but I have a clear path of where to go from here.

Much appreciated.