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01-20-2010 , 10:48 PM

dan233

adept

Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 865

I ve been doing a great deal of thinking about the game.
I m posting this to see if I m correctly understanding the significance of the button.
It is better to be on the button because:
Poker is not so much a game of the actual cards but rather a game of position.
A simple example:
If 2 players limp to you on the "button", you raise JTs x4bb+1bb/limper,
the sb and the bb fold... now, there is a chance that you ll miss the flop but there s an equal chance for the limpers to miss it too. You find out if they "check" then you place a pot size c-bet and most of the time they ll fold (assuming they re typical players, not aggrodonks).
Am I correct?

Last edited by dan233; 01-20-2010 at 11:10 PM.

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01-20-2010 , 11:18 PM

Gutshot22

centurion

Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 165

Well that, although you are becoming an aggrodonk by making a lot of plays like that. You basically are the last to act, which means you have more information than everyone else before making a play.

Also in your example I think you need to look at board texture before necessarily firing a pot size bet. What are you going to do if you get check raised? For your example, you just lost around 12 BB if you fold every time someone makes a play at you.

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01-20-2010 , 11:27 PM

dan233

adept

Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 865

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gutshot22

Sorry. I ve started putting 2/3 sometime just 1/2 sized C-bets. that s better?

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01-20-2010 , 11:30 PM

jackwilcox

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 9,841

yeah your example is fundamentally why position is so important. position is so important that its almost impossible to put a % on it in terms of how much equity u gain by playing in position

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01-20-2010 , 11:42 PM

dan233

adept

Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 865

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackwilcox

yeah your example is fundamentally why position is so important. position is so important that its almost impossible to put a % on it in terms of how much equity u gain by playing in position

Ok
it has taken me a lot of time to realize this seemingly simple fact. I had read about the importance of position but I didnt truely understand this because of the fact that you can always check raise the one who s on the button.I thought this would somewhat "compensate" for being OOP...

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01-20-2010 , 11:46 PM

jackwilcox

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 9,841

think how much it costs to c/r tho. u have to risk a lot more than a standard cbet, which increases variance. if someone c/r-'s a lot, its also easy to counter - either by floating or 3betting the flop.

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01-20-2010 , 11:54 PM

dan233

adept

Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 865

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackwilcox

I see
Too bad it has taken me 100K hands to understand this.I guess I just learn the hard way by "reinventing the wheel".

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01-20-2010 , 11:59 PM

jackwilcox

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 9,841

100k hands? what have u been playing and what was your winrate? if u have played 100k hands at one limit and broke even, then there is probably more to analyse that just your button play

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01-21-2010 , 12:09 AM

dan233

adept

Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 865

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackwilcox

100k hands? what have u been playing and what was your winrate? if u have played 100k hands at one limit and broke even, then there is probably more to analyse that just your button play

I can post the graphs.. I m winning at 2nl over a 57k sample (+113$ so far)
losing heavily at 10nl over 40k hands(-400$ so far)
so yes I realize there are other things than my button play.

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01-21-2010 , 12:21 AM

#10

uofi2012

adept

Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 1,124

How many tables are you playing? If I were to guess, it is way too many if you've put in that many hands. Play less and try and get better.

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01-21-2010 , 12:32 AM

#11

macvolcan

grinder

Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 606

The biggest thing about position is you have the most information available to you to make your decision, whether your hand is marginal you will be able to get away cheaper when your beat and extract more value when your ahead.

If you flop a monster you tend to know much faster if your opponent has a hand and have all options available to you.

If you flop a draw and its checked to you, you can check behind and draw for free so villains tend to lead out more when they have some sort of hand against you. And there are times when villain has a monster and he checks to trap you, you check behind and outdraw him, then proceed to stack them.

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01-21-2010 , 12:49 AM

#12

dan233

adept

Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 865

Quote:

Originally Posted by uofi2012

How many tables are you playing? If I were to guess, it is way too many if you've put in that many hands. Play less and try and get better.

At 2nl I ve tried 8 tabling and 4 tabling. abandoned everything above 4 tables.
10 nl I ve never played above 3 but of course even that is too much for a beginner.I m just slowly starting to comprehend SOME things

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01-21-2010 , 05:02 AM

#13

dan233

adept

Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 865

A couple questions...
1.Is what I describe in my example called:
A)isolating?
B)squeezing?
C)blind stealing?
D)all of the above?

2.As I understand you can squeeze (or whatever it is called) with a wide range in the right conditions (limpers who fold a lot). Can you put such a "limp fold" stat into your HUD? and do you find it useful

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01-21-2010 , 02:17 PM

#14

jackwilcox

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 9,841

it doesnt really matter what u call it, its just about playing the hand profitably.

idk if u can put that stat in, but limp/folding doesnt make u that much money. u make more when they call and then c/f the flop. or when they c/c down and u can make thin value bets.

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01-21-2010 , 02:58 PM

#15

gt_ie

adept

Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 884

Its called "punishing the limpers" and sometimes, particularly if you have a good hand, isolating. If you have a weak hand and are doing this as a bluff, then it isn't isolating b/c you don't want a call.

Squeezing is when someone opens for say 3x, then someone flat calls. So, counting blinds there is 7.5x in the pot. You now raise to, say, 12x. This is a strong move because it's hard for the opener to call because a) he's been raised and b) there is still someone to act behind him. It's hard for the original caller to call your squeeze b/c his hand was too weak to raise with originally so what how can he call now.

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