Here ya go

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.10(BB) Poker Stars
SB ($9.90)
Hero ($11.35)
UTG ($10)
UTG+1 ($10.05)
CO ($12.65)
BTN ($10)

Dealt to Hero Q Q

UTG calls $0.10, fold, CO calls $0.10, fold, SB calls $0.05, Hero raises to $0.50, UTG calls $0.40, CO calls $0.40, SB calls $0.40

FLOP ($2) 9 5 8

SB bets $9.40 (AI), Hero?


My action was instant on this hand but for the guys moving up I think this is a good "whats the difference between 5nl and 10nl?" hand. SB is 26/8/0 fold to cbet/ 1.0 Aggression

Decent day starting at nl10 imho. Rushhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

INITIAL REACTION: I snap fold but I always get these hands wrong when you post them . Only 50c in pot so easier places to get my money in.

NOW IM THINKING: I snap call. Hes fishy so called pre with TT/JJ and open shoves because he "obviously" has the best hand on a low flop.

EDIT: Then turn and river gave him backdoor flush or straight because the deck hates you .

I also should mention C/O is 85/28/44/4.3 as it does change SB's line a bit.

OK have to ask with these stats. Is he the maniac calling with anything, or is he the smart maniac who just makes it horrible for everyone post flop but will rarely pay anyone off?

He was your typical laggy calling station. He's going to bluff at a lot of flops and turns when shown weakness. His Cbet fold leads me to believe he's folding a lot flops where me or another good player has cbet/shown strength. Basically the usual aggro micros donk who loves to bluff. He's most likely going aggressive/stack off with any TP/Strong drawing hands.

OK I would still probably fold because I hate stacking off with one pair, especially in situations like this.

But I think a call would be the best play. I really think he has A9, K9 (maybe As/Ks) or TT or JJ and is hoping to get paid off by the CO who they think would call with just a FD/SD or worse top pair or middle pair, but is more likely to fold since hes not the aggressor.

without the co i snap call, with the co i snap call more often than not.

cross fingers, and hope QQ holds against the draw.

don;t leave us hanging too long blane, put us out of our misery soon

Now maybe I'm being results oriented with this post because I insta-folded after insta calling his hand.But I'll go through my thoughts to reach my turned out to be correct read. His limp call means we can basically rule out AA/KK/QQ/JJ/ almost all premiums. If he was limping with them he would of been limping with the intention to 3 bet since I had been opening a lot trying to ISO fish. UTG had usual 2+2 TAG stats so he has a wide range but I'm not worried about him. Fish in C/O could have any hand so we are going to eval him on flop if we need to.


Sb: He's got a somewhat tiny range but sample size is small and he's completed from the SB which I almost always consider a fishy move. So player was willing to complete with the hand from sb but not raise and has only limped along when I open. I narrow his range down to low PPs, suited connectors, off suit Broadways , suited one gappers, generally speculative hands that play well with the odds laid to him.

Flop comes down fairly good for our hand and I am planning on cbetting around 80-90% pot hoping to get fish to stack off with A-9 or 9-10. Instead we are donked into with a huge overbet on a fairly wet flop. Considering the range of hands that we've assigned him what hands possibly make sense to be donking this flop so huge? The only flush draw I could see him doing it with is A-9ss but he so rarely shows up with that considering action. If he has 99-88 he is most likely letting me cbet flop, get fish to come along then ship, even if he DID have a set, overbettingpot is a pretty lolbad line even for the worst of players. His bet screamed to me "I have two pair+ and will hate any turn on this board". I laugh, announced his hand to myself and fold. Board has hit A LOT of his limp calling range and I think we often drawing very thin.




Poker Stars $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

BTN: $10.00
SB: $9.90
Hero (BB): $11.35
UTG: $10.00
MP: $10.05
CO: $12.65

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is BB with Q Q
UTG calls $0.10, 1 fold, CO calls $0.10, 1 fold, SB calls $0.05, Hero raises to $0.50, UTG calls $0.40, CO calls $0.40, SB calls $0.40

Flop: ($2.00) 9 5 8 (4 players)
SB bets $9.40 all in, Hero folds, UTG folds, CO calls $9.40

Turn: ($20.80) J (2 players - 1 is all in)

River: ($20.80) 5 (2 players - 1 is all in)

Final Pot: $20.80
SB shows 9 8 (two pair, Nines and Eights)
CO shows 2 9 (two pair, Nines and Fives)
SB wins $19.80
(Rake: $1.00)


Turns out we coulda called and sucked out. I second the opinion of roca in that theres absolutely no reason to stack off in this spot vs such a fishy/odd line. These massive flop/turn overbets by weak passive players are often what they do when facing drawy boards and not knowing how to play well post flop. I know because I used to be one of them.

I was almost inclined to call with C/O left to act but decided that this is almost always a -ev call against SB. Btw I think holding the Qs in my hand and getting to peel the turn would of made this hand a lot more interesting as well. I think a lot of 5nl guys go broke here with an overpair cause 5nl players are SO bad that calling at that limit with QQ here is prob standard and +ev. Stack off ranges DO change as you move up limits and your overpairs on wet flops like that aren't going to be good as often at 10nl as they were at 5nl.

I probably call and then curse as I am shown a set or straight.

Edit to account for having seen results:When a passive guy like the sb shoves like that he is ahead of a 1 pair hand.

These type of boards are ones that the sb should be donking on, multiway connected boards are much less likely to be c-bet on.If he had led for close to pot he would have played it well imo.

I've discovered I basically just shouldnt play during the week. I live in Australia so play after work/uni. This makes it like 8AM US time. It seems its not so much play poker as nit it up and steal blinds while getting in marginal situations and throwing money away. The difference is just amazing compared to when I can play on mornings on the weekend (night US time). Losing money is annoying, but its just the games in general are numbing my mind with boredom and then I lose interest.

Easy to give assessments after you've seen the outcome of a hand, it's like a TV host saying what should/what will happen during a hand. Anyone can say "I think he has this..I knew he'd do that..he's a fish..etc.." AFTER they've seen what happens.

Roca, I usually don't play around this time 08:00 server time, but I just collected 15.5 VPPs in 300 hands of 5NL FR, It usually takes me around 500 hands just to get ~9 VPPs. And as far as I've seen, the games are the complete opposite of what you described. People are stacking off with bottom pair and no kicker. A guy just gave me half of his stack with a pair 7s on a TQQ2A board, I had AQ and couldn't get his whole stack =(

I want your tables. I probably sound whiny. Maybe I just have the worst luck at tables during the week and best on weekends. Is there some secret because I sort by players / flop then choose best 3/4 tables without heaps of short stacks. Then as stats converge it ends up as 20/10 with maybe one fish who will call PF without a premium.

Except the assessments in this thread were given without results and my read obviously made before I saw them as well. I don't really see the point of this post. Why is that hand discussion usually means hand arguing around here lately? Yes I knew the results of the hand but figured there was some value in going into how I reached my read and wanted possible feedback and maybe to help someone out.

Andy: I agree. A donk bet of around 1.50-1.75 would of got me to string along and probably gotten our fishy LAG to call/spaz raise. As I said in my other post, this bet just screams to me of someone with a hand they are uncomfortable playing multi-way postflop. I

Roca, I usually just look for tables with as many stacks above $5 (or 100bb for your level) and then look for higher % seeing flop. I like to see bigger stacks more than bigger % seeing flop though. I'm not sure if that's a good way to go, but that's what I do. I agree that most of the tables are super nitty though, especially around 16:00 server time, but once it gets around 19:00-00:00 I see tons of action. I think it's the 5 hour gap of Americans getting off work and the Europeans playing at night, and it makes for more fun and more VPPs lol.

Blane, I just seen like 4 or 5 posts on the same hand, where you obviously had the chance to look it over and make predictions. Another thing, I think if you begin to try and play without your HUD for a while, you'll make better decisions. I could be wrong, but it works well for me. Do you put a lot into the numbers/stats your looking at? Because every time I see you stereo type a villain, you mostly base it off of his HUD stats.

OK well how many hours from now are those times? Right now its 9pm where I am...

I think america is roughly -12 and I'm like +8 in front of UK.

Well your 13 hours ahead of me, Its 8:15 AM here. Just look at your PokerStars Lobby, on the bottom left corner next to the cashier it shows the server time. I think it will be around 10am your time, and you will most likely be at work during them hours.

I'm utterly confused at your paragraph. Am I getting it right that since 4 people posted on a hand you decided to say it's easy to post assessments after given results? None of the 4 posts were made when the results were up though. Yes obv. I knew the results but why would I lie about my read during the hand? I learn nothing by doing that.

I don't feel the need to play without a HUD. Why would I? Yes I base some reads on villains stats but that's what they are there for. If you aren't using these to your benefit whats the point? I stereo type villains based on the play I had seen at the table/stats/reads/game flow dynamics. I'm not sure why you seem to think I'm a HUD bot. You don't want to base your reads purely on stats but a flop over bet shove from a 24/8/.8 fairly passive opponent and one from a 90/34/4.5 opponent are very different and you should be treating them as such.

I list stats because they are relevant. If you feel you make better decisions without them that's fine but I fail to see why assigning attributes to villains based on their history is a bad thing.

LOL, didn't mean you were a hud bot. I just can't remember the last time I've read a HH and it had an actual READ. To me, the HUD doesn't apply well at 5NL, the players are so skitzo. I think at 10NL+ they will actually start to make sense and I'll be able to put a certain player in a category. So you def. right about that.

BTW, do you just play 10NL or do you jump up/down as well? Because if you have to step down (hopefully not) I want you to try an play without it for a session or two, an compare how you play with/without the hud. It's pretty easy to think for yourself at these levels, especially when you don't have more than 9 tables running. (I say 9 bcuz I can see 9 at once on my screen and anymore than that, it's hard to see how ppl act/play) So even if you don't drop down, take an hour next time you have a chance an try it out, it actually helped my game going back to basics.

Funnily enough, thats exactly the time when I enjoy playing poker. I have my clock in pokerstars set to my local time, guess I'll switch it back.

Basically playing on weekdays seems mostly pointless for me. I don't get to play any poker because its so nitty and my bankroll either goes no where or down, generally because if a pots big its because someone is getting coolered. There is no thinking about calling a turn bet and maybe drawing or facing a bigger bet on the river, or weather to value bet a marginal made hand.

Steal over and over and then have a c/bet fail for once and someone wake up with a hand and back to nothing again. Two or three "bad" (results) hands in a row and then it doesn't matter how I play it will take a fair amount of time to get back to even.

Then I will loosen up and still end up around nothing (J9s should not seem like a great raising hand in MP....) and actually get a good hand and they still fold. Im just not sure how loose I have to play to start seeing a turn .

Worst bit is my game probably gets worse because of it. I start thinking "well maybe I should check this TPTK on this drawy board in a chance of getting paid off" and silly plays that on any decent day I know are bad.

</vent>

Heh, I like to vent too, that's why my chat is revoked. With what you described, I think you should just look for looser tables, and if your sitting at one and the action dries up, don't be afraid to get up and move. Play around 6-9 tables (if your comfy with it) then you won't force anything, and it won't seem as dull folding your blinds all the time. If I'm going through a losing/break even stretch I just get off for a bit, maybe eat some food or watch some TV to take my mind off it. I don't play as much as I used too, but your so right about the nitty tables. Only thing you can do is get up and leave, and if you play 3 or 4 orbits and see nothing is happening then maybe you just play position and and when they check the flop to you follow it with a 1/2 pot cbet. GL ttyl

Try starting your own table...fishies love to flock to new tables so that they can get in the game right away.

Are you playing 6max or FR? 6max games are very fishy at micros on weekday mornings. I usually find plenty of good action at around 5-8 AM EST in the U.S. No idea what time that is where you are. If you are playing FR I got nothing to add .

Scherer I play almost all 10nl. I will drop down and playing 5nl from time to time if I find a good game going but for the most part I am looking to build towards 25nl and have begun taking shots up there when I saw good games running the past two days. I've been one tabling and focusing on reads when taking my shot up there so I have been doing a bit of what you've been saying. The one part I fundamentally disagreed with Ryan Fees guide was that you should play without a HUD. I understand noobies shouldn't be worrying about it so much and letting it run their game but I think it's very +EV to know if I should lead a flop or if villain is aggressive and will value bet for me. Is this possible to know without stats? Sure. But when I'm 6 tabling 6max games where players are dropping in and out it's just quicker to let HEM figure it out for me so I can focus on other things.

It is important for people who DO play with HUDs to try and focus on players who have been at your table for a while. Not every 21/12 plays the same and if you just treat players as a number it's going to back fire.

Yeah, just gets to the point where 25/10 is about the best tables consistently and I stay there. Guess I should just leave a session in that case.

I like this idea, might try it with a couple of buy ins. Also lets me do a tiny bit of heads up .