My entitlement tilt would have just gone off the charts!

@quadas, I agree 100% with your analysis of those two hands, for what it's worth.

@gamma, thank you for your insight re: donk/3bet vs. X/R. I'll try to keep such things in mind in the future (I seem to be saying that an awful lot).

Another couple hands that I'd like to discuss:

PokerStars - $0.25 NL - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG: $20.10 (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 16.67, 3Bet Preflop: 20.00, Hands: 12)
MP: $10.84 (VPIP: 33.33, PFR: 25.00, 3Bet Preflop: 25.00, Hands: 12)
CO: $9.41 (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 1)
BTN: $26.37 (VPIP: 15.07, PFR: 14.38, 3Bet Preflop: 7.50, Hands: 146)
SB: $11.64 (VPIP: 17.33, PFR: 16.00, 3Bet Preflop: 18.18, Hands: 75)
Hero (BB): $25.00

SB posts SB $0.10, Hero posts BB $0.25

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.35) Hero has 2 4

UTG calls $0.25, fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero checks

Flop: ($0.60, 2 players) 2 K 4
Hero checks, UTG bets $0.75, Hero calls $0.75

Turn: ($2.10, 2 players) 2
Hero checks, UTG bets $1.50, Hero calls $1.50

River: ($5.10, 2 players) K
Hero ???[color=red]

I checked the flop to give the SB a chance to bet. Now that I know what the river card was, I feel like I should have raised the turn, but I didn't really think there was an awful lot that villain could have that would call a raise in that situation. What do you all think of that decision, and how should I play the river?

PokerStars - $0.25 NL - Holdem - 7 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

CO: $11.35 (VPIP: 31.25, PFR: 12.50, 3Bet Preflop: 33.33, Hands: 16)
BTN: $9.55 (VPIP: 17.33, PFR: 16.00, 3Bet Preflop: 18.18, Hands: 75)
SB: $9.75 (VPIP: 6.80, PFR: 5.83, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 105)
BB: $22.58 (VPIP: 14.38, PFR: 6.88, 3Bet Preflop: 5.26, Hands: 164)
UTG: $12.50 (VPIP: 20.75, PFR: 18.87, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 54)
Hero (UTG+1): $25.35
MP: $10.00 (VPIP: 12.50, PFR: 12.50, 3Bet Preflop: 20.00, Hands: 16)

SB posts SB $0.10, BB posts BB $0.25

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.35) Hero has Q Q

UTG raises to $0.90, Hero raises to $2.25, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, UTG calls $1.35

Flop: ($4.85, 2 players) 3 5 J
UTG checks, Hero bets $2.50, UTG raises to $10.25 and is all-in, fold

Is this a fairly standard line? I always give a great deal of credit to an UTG raise, that combined with the flop re-raise made me think that folding was a decent move. Does the size of UTG's stack make a difference in this situation?

There is no point in tilting over it(I try not to anyway). He put himself in a pot with an SPR of 2 with a drawing hand(which is obviously terribad) so il know that in future and own him hard by widening my 4bet value range..
His turn raise is comical haha. Nearly fell off my chair.

@outatime
H1: bet out OTF, your hand is pretty strong but vulnerable.
As played i'd XR turn. You say he can't call with much, he open limped, he is a fish. He is not folding a king and absolutely never folding a 2. I'd prob just XF riv to any decent size bet.

H2: You say you give UTG raises a lot of credit yet you 3bet it with the bottom of your standard 3bet value range I am absolutely fine with 3betting QQ and getting it in vs a short stacker but I was just pointing out a hole in your logic
OTF you have an SPR of roughly 2. Its a huge mistake to fold an overpair to anybody with an SPR of 2 baring some sick sick read. By folding your basically putting him on JJ(maybe 55/22 but thats not very likely) which don't you think he will slowplay on this dry board? He will mostly get JJ in pre too. He 99% doesnt have AA/KK since its quite unlikely your bluff 3betting a short stacker that opened UTG, especially with that sizing.

Gamma, thanks again for your help.

H1, truthfully, while playing the hand (a situation where I actually thought things though while in the midst of a hand) I put almost 0 K's in villain's range. Even with a small sample size like this one, I figure any K would have raised PF. Perhaps that's flawed reasoning but that's what I went with.

Re 3betting on H2 and giving credit to UTG raises, I guess I didn't think those things were mutually exclusive. In hindsight, I suppose I didn't really play this hand all that well, especially OTF. Also, I should be able to eliminate AA/KK from his range as ~100% of short stackers I've played against would have gone with a 4bet shove in that situation. I wonder if, by trying to be mindful of situations where I get raised (especially in a 3bet pot), I am becoming too timid. Something to work on.

I really wanted to fold the turn here, but then I thought the guys over at 2+2 would kill me if I did, so I have to shove. But if we assume that this isn't 2nl, but it is at a higher level vs. a decent player, what other hand than AA would play like this? Any Ax, even AQ and AK are cbetting for value. 22 should also cbet for value with so many Ax that can pay. The only hand it ever makes sense to take this line with is AA, because it prevents me from having most hands that would call a cbet.

PokerStars - $0.02 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: $1.92 (VPIP: 100.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 1)
SB: $2.15 (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 1)
BB: $2.00
UTG: $2.07 (VPIP: 31.82, PFR: 25.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 45)
MP: $1.70 (VPIP: 18.97, PFR: 8.62, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 59)
Hero (CO): $4.27

SB posts SB $0.01, BB posts BB $0.02

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.03) Hero has Q Q

fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.06, fold, fold, BB raises to $0.16, Hero calls $0.10

Flop: ($0.33, 2 players) Q 2 A
BB checks, Hero bets $0.21, BB calls $0.21

Turn: ($0.75, 2 players) 7
BB checks, Hero bets $0.38, BB raises to $0.76, Hero raises to $2.28, BB calls $0.87 and is all-in

River: ($4.01, 2 players) 6

No worries
I wouldn't remove any hand from a limping range. People can limp with anything really.

Its good to be folding to raises since the micros are usually pretty passive, but maybe your just a bit to far in that direction. There are just some situations where you can't fold ha

@quadas, i'm glad you didn't fold he can turn up with loads of stuff here. Its pretty much just like above. If you start folding the second nuts to raises your not going to get very far

edit: 4bet pre with QQ too.

Here is a situation where I should be finding a fold.

Hero (BTN): $68.51
SB: $30.29 - VPIP: 16, PFR: 11, 3B: 7, AF: 2.7, Hands: 534
BB: $25.00 - VPIP: 26, PFR: 22, 3B: 10, AF: 2.9, Hands: 1609
UTG: $56.06 - VPIP: 34, PFR: 18, 3B: 5, AF: 1.7, Hands: 482
MP: $22.16 - VPIP: 18, PFR: 14, 3B: 5, AF: 2.0, Hands: 99
CO: $35.18 - VPIP: 13, PFR: 8, 3B: 4, AF: 3.7, Hands: 125

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is BTN with 9 8
UTG raises to $0.75, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.75, 2 folds

Flop: ($1.85) J Q T (2 players)
UTG bets $1.25, Hero raises to $4, UTG raises to $15, Hero raises to $67.76, UTG calls $40.31 all in

Turn: ($112.47) 9 (2 players - 1 is all in)

River: ($112.47) 5 (2 players - 1 is all in)

Final Pot: $112.47
Hero shows 9 8
UTG shows K A
UTG wins $110.47
(Rake: $2.00)

He has 16 combos of AK to which I have 0% equity and 9 combos of sets to which I have ~60% equity. Against the range I have 25% equity. His 3bet size OTF really gives it away. Its a raise OTF but a snap fold to the 3bet.

I didn't actually imagine its as bad as it is to stack off here :/

Not folding second nuts, no. But if we return to the original question, assuming a decent player, for example if you were the villain (I'm assuming you're decent ), what is your range when taking that line? Are you doing it with AQ? AKhh? 22? Random spazz?

Edit: And speaking of the people we should be making money of:

PokerStars - $0.02 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: $0.53 (VPIP: 17.02, PFR: 8.51, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 48)
Hero (SB): $2.00
BB: $1.00 (VPIP: 75.00, PFR: 16.67, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 25)
UTG: $0.63 (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 50.00, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 5)
MP: $1.84
CO: $2.34 (VPIP: 12.50, PFR: 12.50, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 16)

Hero posts SB $0.01, BB posts BB $0.02

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.03) Hero has Q Q

fold, MP raises to $0.04, fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.14, BB calls $0.12, MP calls $0.10

Flop: ($0.42, 3 players) 2 6 T
Hero bets $0.27, BB raises to $0.54, MP raises to $1.70 and is all-in, Hero raises to $1.86 and is all-in, BB calls $0.32 and is all-in

Turn: ($4.68, 3 players) 2

River: ($4.68, 3 players) J

@quadas, for what it's worth, and I'm not saying I'm a decent player, but I don't think I'm ever folding that QQ hand either. I don't know what you think about this but I could see Ahxh hands taking that line (especially with you as the original PFR). If I'm allowing for that, then I suppose I have to include AQ and AK in with it. I'm not saying it's a great play, but when I 3bet OOP and then hit the flop, I sometimes do this hoping that I'll get bet into.

@gamma, I understand that you do not have the correct equity for the hand you've posted, but am wondering what exactly it is about the size of the 3bet (rather than the 3bet itself) that gives away the villain's hand? Is it a combination of the size and the PF play? Is it that the SPR at that point ensures that all of the money will go in to the pot if you decide to continue with the hand?

Just had a decent session ruined by one hand toward the end vs a spazztard (hence the 4b pre and the xb on the flop - he'd routinely barrel off whenever ANYONE checked).

PokerStars - $0.25 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (BTN): $25.00
SB: $33.55
BB: $24.53 (VPIP: 22.73, PFR: 13.64, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 24)
UTG: $29.18 (VPIP: 8.06, PFR: 8.06, 3Bet Preflop: 3.85, Hands: 63)
MP: $9.07 (VPIP: 22.45, PFR: 20.58, 3Bet Preflop: 7.14, Hands: 251)
CO: $33.52 (VPIP: 33.33, PFR: 25.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 26)

SB posts SB $0.10, BB posts BB $0.25

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.35) Hero has A K

UTG raises to $0.75, fold, CO raises to $2.00, Hero raises to $4.50, fold, fold, fold, CO calls $2.50

Flop: ($10.10, 2 players) K 7 3
CO checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($10.10, 2 players) 5
CO checks, Hero bets $5.30, CO raises to $10.75, Hero calls $5.45

River: ($31.60, 2 players) 3
CO bets $18.27 and is all-in, Hero calls $9.75 and is all-in



Some other hands.

1) I was sorely tempted to 4b the river here as he shouldn't ever have the Ac here given turn action (hence the river raise), but then I realised that he was a 25NL reg who'd just 3bet the river for 100bb. Also not sure whether turn should be a xb.

PokerStars - $0.25 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: $48.82 (VPIP: 12.00, PFR: 8.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 25)
SB: $99.13 (VPIP: 21.67, PFR: 13.33, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 60)
Hero (BB): $92.89
UTG: $34.94 (VPIP: 41.18, PFR: 29.41, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 19)
MP: $65.82 (VPIP: 15.79, PFR: 11.28, 3Bet Preflop: 5.56, Hands: 135)
CO: $29.56 (VPIP: 23.44, PFR: 18.75, 3Bet Preflop: 5.00, Hands: 69)

SB posts SB $0.10, Hero posts BB $0.25

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.35) Hero has 5 4

fold, fold, fold, fold, SB raises to $0.75, Hero calls $0.50

Flop: ($1.50, 2 players) A Q 2
SB bets $1.00, Hero calls $1.00

Turn: ($3.50, 2 players) 5
SB checks, Hero bets $2.20, SB calls $2.20

River: ($7.90, 2 players) J
SB bets $4.00, Hero raises to $12.91, SB raises to $29.50, fold



2) WHAT YOU REPPING BRO? (I'm repping JJ/TT btw)

PokerStars - $0.25 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: $11.91 (VPIP: 33.33, PFR: 19.44, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 38)
SB: $25.04 (VPIP: 20.26, PFR: 12.42, 3Bet Preflop: 8.70, Hands: 156)
BB: $27.56 (VPIP: 31.88, PFR: 28.99, 3Bet Preflop: 20.83, Hands: 69)
UTG: $46.11 (VPIP: 21.05, PFR: 10.53, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 20)
MP: $35.09 (VPIP: 21.82, PFR: 18.18, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 55)
Hero (CO): $25.00

SB posts SB $0.10, BB posts BB $0.25

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.35) Hero has Q K

fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.62, fold, fold, BB raises to $2.50, Hero calls $1.88

Flop: ($5.10, 2 players) 4 4 5
BB checks, Hero bets $2.67, BB raises to $6.75, Hero calls $4.08

Turn: ($18.60, 2 players) J
BB checks, Hero checks

River: ($18.60, 2 players) 5
BB checks, Hero bets $15.75 and is all-in, fold



3) This hand seems standard but I just want a linecheck.

PokerStars - $0.25 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (BTN): $51.99
SB: $25.45 (VPIP: 21.00, PFR: 18.36, 3Bet Preflop: 8.21, Hands: 694)
BB: $24.65 (VPIP: 14.71, PFR: 8.82, 3Bet Preflop: 7.14, Hands: 34)
UTG: $34.91 (VPIP: 18.18, PFR: 9.09, 3Bet Preflop: 25.00, Hands: 12)
MP: $27.88 (VPIP: 34.48, PFR: 18.97, 3Bet Preflop: 4.00, Hands: 59)
CO: $62.07 (VPIP: 34.09, PFR: 15.91, 3Bet Preflop: 5.26, Hands: 90)

SB posts SB $0.10, BB posts BB $0.25

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.35) Hero has A J

UTG raises to $0.75, fold, fold, Hero raises to $2.25, fold, fold, UTG calls $1.50

Flop: ($4.85, 2 players) Q Q K
UTG checks, Hero bets $2.54, UTG calls $2.54

Turn: ($9.93, 2 players) T
UTG checks, Hero bets $5.21, UTG raises to $10.42, Hero calls $5.21

River: ($30.77, 2 players) T
UTG checks, Hero checks



4) Anyone calling this river?

PokerStars - $0.25 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: $25.35 (VPIP: 17.89, PFR: 16.97, 3Bet Preflop: 6.98, Hands: 221)
SB: $50.07 (VPIP: 33.33, PFR: 16.67, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 6)
BB: $11.63 (VPIP: 15.28, PFR: 11.11, 3Bet Preflop: 3.03, Hands: 73)
Hero (UTG): $41.41
MP: $24.45 (VPIP: 9.09, PFR: 9.09, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 11)
CO: $13.08 (VPIP: 45.45, PFR: 45.45, 3Bet Preflop: 33.33, Hands: 11)

SB posts SB $0.10, BB posts BB $0.25

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.35) Hero has K Q

Hero raises to $0.87, fold, CO raises to $1.75, fold, fold, fold, Hero calls $0.88

Flop: ($3.85, 2 players) A 7 8
Hero checks, CO bets $1.25, Hero calls $1.25

Turn: ($6.35, 2 players) 5
Hero checks, CO checks

River: ($6.35, 2 players) K
Hero checks, CO bets $10.08 and is all-in, fold

Is there any good sites besides bovada for u.s. players? Want to withdraw some at bovada and deposit at another to take advantage of deposit bonuses.

Against a good reg I'm probably never going to take this line. Against someone who folds a lot to cbets I might take this line with AA/QQ or small Axhh. Never have 22 here. I wouldn't 3bet it pre(unless I'm 3bet/5betting it). Its not good for barreling.

Well the standard 3bet size OTF is probably between 2.5 and 3x and he makes it almost 4x. We are really deep but I just don't think he is ever using that sizing without the nuts.

@ TDA,

H4: I don't think we can call. He has AA/KK too much here and just loves slowplaying.

Been playing super stud at my reg home game w/ my friends. This game is the EPITOME of action.

Essentially Pot Limit Stud 8

-Ante up like a regular stud 8 game
-Each player gets dealt 4 cards
-Each player discards 1 card
-In clockwise order from the BTN, each player chooses 1 card to be their up card
-The bring in can call for 1 ante, or raise up to the pot
-Everything from 4th street to the river is essentially the same, except obv the max bet is the pot

Thought I would share it with you guys. Even some of our friends that aren't serious poker players love the game

Hero (BTN): $29.35
SB: $66.82 - VPIP: 50, PFR: 0, 3B: 0, AF: 0.0, Hands: 2
BB: $35.45 - VPIP: 20, PFR: 11, 3B: 7, AF: 1.0, Hands: 44
UTG: $25.70 - VPIP: 14, PFR: 9, 3B: 3, AF: 1.6, Hands: 87
MP: $32.35 - VPIP: 17, PFR: 10, 3B: 2, AF: 1.7, Hands: 174
CO: $36.61 - VPIP: 30, PFR: 26, 3B: 10, AF: 9.0, Hands: 159

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is BTN with A 8
2 folds, CO raises to $0.75, Hero raises to $2.10, 2 folds, CO raises to $4.20, Hero?


can't fold to a 2x 4bet IP 120 deep can I?

I'd sooner 5bet small.

Ye, you can. Whether that's right or wrong though, dunno you didn't give me any info.

A little BR update. At the start of this month I hadn't played in quite a while and my account was almost empty after paying BHUNLA. Accepting the RoR, I decided to give it a shot to try 6max and grind it up playing zoom, starting with 7$. My goal was to make 100$ profit before moving up. Finally!



First 17k hands are at the same winrate I had last year when I rushed through 2nl FR zoom. After that I think I must have slept with the wrong PS executive's wife. I cannot remember any such thing happening, but I assume it must have happened while I was really, really drunk, because that is the only reasonable explanation I can come up with for a 20k break-even stretch at 2nl. Felt like I was running like the plague at times, but luckily it's 2nl so it was still possible to keep the graph somewhat in shape.

Here's my all-time 2nl giraffe, including FR Zoom from last year:



It seems I must have done some change to the worse in my game there when the 20k break-even stretch started. The red line takes a sharp turn downwards. I guess I was constantly bumping into the top of villains range for a while, which made me stop value betting thinly and double barreling. Better try to work those back into my game, I think.

I also broke silver star today, lol at silver star in 50k hands! And I would still not be there if it wasn't for satting into the bigger 109 with fpps, which supplied 10% of the required vpps for silver star...

Now I'm 20vpp from my first $10 stellar reward this year. I will still grind that at 2nl to get an extra 2 BI cushion before moving up. Then I shall fearlessly jump right into exploiting all of you BQ fish at 5nl!!

Going to sit at all your tables just to lower your EV, because I can.

jk, congratz man always nice to get out of 2nl :P

His stats are up above the hand. He has fold to 3bet of 67 and a 4bet of 12.5.

MMSS whose gimmick account are you?

What do you mean? I've had an account on 2+2 before but like over a year ago and it must have had like 3 posts.

What hands are you calling with here?

PokerStars - $0.02 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (BTN): $3.23
SB: $0.98 (VPIP: 9.09, PFR: 9.09, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 22)
BB: $1.54 (VPIP: 45.45, PFR: 36.36, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 12)
UTG: $1.41 (VPIP: 30.00, PFR: 21.43, 3Bet Preflop: 4.17, Hands: 71)
MP: $0.58 (VPIP: 100.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 1)
CO: $2.79 (VPIP: 9.52, PFR: 4.76, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 42)

SB posts SB $0.01, BB posts BB $0.02

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.03) Hero has ??

fold, MP calls $0.02, CO raises to $0.08, Hero calls $0.08, SB raises to $0.98 and is all-in, fold, MP calls $0.56 and is all-in, CO raises to $2.79 and is all-in,

CO seems quite tight and I would expect him to do this with the majority of his raising range when 2 shorties go all-in. And CO is the only one we need to worry about. As long as we beat him, the call is profitable, so I shouldn't be thinking of this as a multiway AI, but a HU AI vs CO, right?

You speak with the authority of someone who has spent time in these forums is all