I'd rather have a wheel with a redraw in a 5-way pot than in a 2-way pot. I'm not going to be donating my checks with a one-way hand, multi-way to the river in stud8 - I'll be out before 4th or 5th street.

But yeah, a poor player loses his ass faster in stud8 than in a lot of other games, which is why you don't see a lot of stud8 spread at higher limits outside of mixed games, but that doesn't mean the variance is higher.

I have typed out 2 questions on this point but when I read them back they don;t make sense, so I'll just go with when are we looking to 3b/cap 3rd in Razz?

Variance isn't entirely a function of your own play. Folding earlier does keep your own variance down, but when you do have your two way hand and get invested in the pot, you generally are fighting for a bigger pot in Stud8 because it's generally more multiway, which increases variance.

But in razz, more players KNOW that folding earlier is correct. In Stud8 and other split pot games, most players often overestimate their equity in a multiway pot and can't fold before the river (or more importantly 3rd/4th/5th). That is what makes Stud8 (and to a lesser extent Omaha8) so great!

If you play both games regularly, you could try to calculate your standard deviation for each game. StudTracker can do it for you but apparently that software is no longer actively supported. You'll be surprised they are quite close, even though Stud8 is a split pot game. Although remember, Stud8 pots aren't always split either.

Not when you have a lock on at least half the pot, which is going to be most of the time when you get jammed in a multiway pot. If you can't be the one who's jamming, you shouldn't be in there. Of course you'll brick A234 just like you do in razz, but you can escape with half the pot.

People playing you correctly leads to lower variance?

Them damn quarters'll get ya...

It's noting like omaha8. I can't remember the last time I chopped the low.

quartering is a serious issue in O8, but not so much in Stud8. It happens but it is extremely rare.

when you are far ahead is when you should cap, for example if your opponent is a monkey and wanting to 3bet with an 8 and you have 3 to a wheel or a 6, cap it.

afaik, you don't play many mtts outside of the occasional shenanigans... but how do you adjust in razz as antes go higher? I know you said to play more hands, but are you also adjusting your aggression later in streets and trying to get more thin value? As a razz noob I find myself often stuck between trying to go for a thin big bet or saving bets because I'm unsure where I'm at in the hand.

I played a fair amount of razzaments. What I was talking about is that usually when you go up in stakes, the antes become a larger % of the small bet. Also, when comparing the structure of stars vs what FTP had, FTP had a much higher ante structure.

Back in the old days I saw some pretty wacked out stuctures (I even saw a crazy structure in Oklahoma City) Party had some absurdly high ante, I think it was 100% of the bring-in at the .5/1 level and some gaming network (maybe microgaming) had no antes in their stud games.

As for your adjustments that you need to make in stud donkaments, I feel unqualified to answer this. Sorry.

This thread inspired me to try playing some razz and I invested 275FPP in a scoop satellite just for fun. Here's the most interesting hand from that tournament along with my reasoning for each street. Please let me know if/why my reasoning is horribad noob-thinking.

Poker Stars 275FPP Limit Razz Tournament - t100/t200 Limit + t10 - 7 players
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

Seat 1: t2315 M = 10.52
Seat 3: t1505 M = 6.84
Seat 4: t1050 M = 4.77
Hero (): t1605 M = 7.30
Seat 6: t3160 M = 14.36
Seat 7: t2235 M = 10.16
Seat 8: t1575 M = 7.16

3rd Street: (0.7 SB)
Seat 1: xx xx 7____Seat 1 folds
Seat 3: xx xx A____Seat 3 completes
Seat 4: xx xx 7____Seat 4 folds
Hero: 6 4 8___Hero brings in for $30___Hero calls
Seat 6: xx xx 7____Seat 6 calls____Seat 6 calls
Seat 7: xx xx 8____Seat 7 folds
Seat 8: xx xx 5____Seat 8 calls____Seat 8 calls

I have to speak first with my 8. A lot of low cards out there, especially if there is much action, and I elect to just bring it in and see what happens, then call to see 4th street when I get a good price.

4th Street: (4.7 SB) (4 players)
Seat 3: xx xx A Q____Seat 3 checks
Hero: 6 4 8 T___Hero checks
Seat 6: xx xx 7 K____Seat 6 checks
Seat 8: xx xx 5 J____Seat 8 checks

Everyone bricks, but I now have the best hand. I'm not entirely convinced about the prospects of my T8 in a multiway pot and decide to check to give them worse odds to call if I catch a good looking card on 5th.

5th Street: (2.35 BB) (4 players)
Seat 3: xx xx A Q Q____Seat 3 checks
Hero: 6 4 8 T T___Hero checks
Seat 6: xx xx 7 K 7____Seat 6 checks
Seat 8: xx xx 5 J 8____Seat 8 checks

Now that's not a good looking card. But neither is the card of anyone else. The check here is mostly because I had absolutely no idea what I should do in this situation.

6th Street: (2.35 BB) (4 players)
Seat 3: xx xx A Q Q A____Seat 3 checks____Seat 3 folds
Hero: 6 4 8 T T 4___Hero bets
Seat 6: xx xx 7 K 7 5____Seat 6 calls
Seat 8: xx xx 5 J 8 K____Seat 8 checks____Seat 8 folds

I catch a second pair, but they don't know it so I decide to take a stab at the pot. Nobody has seemed too interested in it so far and it does look to them like I have the best hand right now.

7th Street: (4.35 BB) (2 players)
Hero: 6 4 8 T T 4 8___Hero bets
Seat 6: xx xx 7 K 7 5 xx____Seat 6 checks____Seat 6 ...

I catch a third pair and probably have no chance to win at showdown. But as seat 6 doesn't bet in front of me, I figure he probably didn't improve to a 7 and I might be able to bluff him off the hand so I go for that. The bluff only needs to work less than 1/5 times, so it should be profitable, right?

So, how would the pros have played this?

Only a noob, and don't play tournies yet but here's what I do:

In cash, the call on 3rd is marginal, but in a tournament situation, I would fold. Otherwise the hand is played well.

When you used to play on Stars was there much difference between $1/$2 and $2/$4? There are always tables running at 2/4 but not always 1/2 so I'm thinking of playing 2/4 more even though I'm a noob. What about 3/6?

Not much skillwise to speak of. You will see the same people sitting at 2/4 and 3/6. 5/10 was super soft as well.

I'm a razz noob so please help me here:

I assume villains play on 6th is terribad but 5th is interesting I think.

What's my play on 5th? can I 3-bet?

Poker Stars $0.50/$1.00 Limit Razz $0.05 Ante - 7 players
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

3rd Street: (0.7 SB)
Seat 1: xx xx 6____Seat 1 completes
Hero: 3 7 6___Hero calls
Seat 3: xx xx J____Seat 3 folds
Seat 4: xx xx J____Seat 4 folds
Seat 5: xx xx 7____Seat 5 folds
Seat 6: xx xx K____Seat 6 brings in for $0.25____Seat 6 folds
Seat 8: xx xx 3____Seat 8 folds

4th Street: (3.2 SB) (2 players)
Seat 1: xx xx 6 2____Seat 1 bets
Hero: 3 7 6 2___Hero calls

5th Street: (2.6 BB) (2 players)
Seat 1: xx xx 6 2 Q____Seat 1 raises
Hero: 3 7 6 2 T___Hero bets___Hero calls

6th Street: (6.6 BB) (2 players)
Seat 1: xx xx 6 2 Q 8____Seat 1 raises____Seat 1 caps!
Hero: 3 7 6 2 T A___Hero bets___Hero 3-bets___Hero calls

7th Street: (14.6 BB) (2 players)
Seat 1: xx xx 6 2 Q 8 xx____Seat 1 calls
Hero: 3 7 6 2 T A 3___Hero bets

Thanks for doing this Melchy.

1) If one were looking to pick up HORSE tournaments and was already proficient in NLHE, what order should that player learn the 5 new games in? related slightly to question 2.

2) Which games can give a HORSE specialist the biggest edge in a tournament?

3) What is the ranking of difficulty of learning each of the games from scratch? I of course am decent in Limit Holdem, but that's it.

Bored of NLHE, excited to learn new games, stud has been fun over the last couple of days, thinking it would be fun to play the 1.5k HORSE at the WSOP one of these days.

Sorry about the delay, A.E, I was without internet last night. I don't like his play on 5th at all. You are ahead and you can, in this case 3bet there. Otherwise you played it correctly

I'm going to be brutally honest here. I find that NLHE players have the most difficulty picking up stud games. Not only are they switching to a new form of the game, but they must adjust to a betting structure. As for order, thats a difficult question. I would learn LHE first, then LO8, In terms of stud games, I'd go with stud, stud8, then razz. Others may disagree with my order, but I don't think it is terribly important. One skill you will need to practice quite a bit if you want to get good is memorizing up cards. I can't stress this enough. Remember which up cards were already thrown away.

2. I would guess Stud8 would give you the biggest edge. My reasoning is this: You have an extra betting round which puts you ahead of H and O. In addition, the stud8 hands will play big pots, vs the razz hands which will mostly be fairly small pots.

3. In order from easiest to most difficult for a NLHE player, (ignoring Hold'em)
O8, Stud, Razz, Stud8

So...about your sex life...nah, jk.
I got nothing to ask u, sorry to waste ur time.

I'll chime in on this, since I play a ton of stud tournaments at low stakes. In cash games, if antes are big relative to the bet sizes, you have to play more hands because the pots are worth winning before the hand even starts and it costs you a lot to just sit at the table. You can't afford to wait. But in tournaments, it's completely different. Yes, if antes are huge relative to bet sizes, which is probably true at some sites, you should definitely loosen up (or better yet, play at a better site!). But if antes are reasonable in relation to bet sizes, they usually stay reasonable even as the 'blinds' go up. Assuming you've survived, your stack should have gone up along with the ante/bet size. So you don't normally have the same reasons for loosening up in tournaments, and I think it's really suicidal to do so. I think almost everyone does play too loose at higher blinds, and I've been winning about one quarter of the small stud and stud hi/lo tourneys I play (roughly 15-20 player fields, so very small, but I'm doing okay ) just by keeping to a tight style even as the antes and bet sizes go up. You can survive a long time in stud tournaments folding a lot - it's not like holdem at all. But if you get to fifth street with a marginal hand, you'll often find yourself compelled by pot size to go to seventh as a fairly big underdog and then you can lose most of your chips in a spot where you could have folded for 0.5% of your stack on third street. That's kinda dumb.

And since I'm here, I'll ask a question! What do you think differentiates a 'merely good' razz player from an 'expert' razz player? Assuming someone knows when to fold on 4th, knows how to read an opponent's board, and knows how to value one's hand on third (and later streets) based on exposed cards, and other fairly basic stuff like that, what would that player need to learn to become expert?

Thanks for the answer and don't worry about the delays.

How do you figure I'm ahead? My T low is obv better than his Q low but if he is drawing to a 6 I'm between flipping or a 40% dog according to my equity simulations.

Are you just assuming his range is wider than that? Based on his play on 6th I'm fine with that assumption but unfortunately at the time I didn't know.

If he has A3 he is ahead of me unless I have A3 as well in which case he still has 48%. So I assume if he had A3 the raise is fine?

Or am I missing something that makes this a bad raise?

So I assume my play in this hand is fine?

So my question is more of a question about the play on 7th. My plan was to check back my 76 if I didn't improve. As played, when seat 1 doesn't bet river I thought I could bet and be called by a 75 here as I assume he is betting a 6 low.

However, it turned out I got called by both and they bpth showed an 86 which I thought was surprising as I would have figured people would tend to show up with stronger in a multiway pot. So I guess I'm asking if I'm just being a bit to nitty on the ranges I assign unknowns or if getting to showdown with an 86 is normal in a multiway pot?

Also, I noticed seat 5 played a Q6 (A) starting hand which I think is important for the next hand.

Poker Stars $0.50/$1.00 Limit Razz $0.05 Ante - 4 players
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

3rd Street: (0.4 SB)
Seat 1: xx xx 4____Seat 1 completes
Hero: 4 7 2___Hero calls
Seat 5: xx xx A____Seat 5 calls
Seat 6: xx xx 8____Seat 6 brings in for $0.25____Seat 6 folds

4th Street: (3.9 SB) (3 players)
Seat 1: xx xx 4 5____Seat 1 bets
Hero: 4 7 2 6___Hero calls
Seat 5: xx xx A 8____Seat 5 calls

5th Street: (3.45 BB) (3 players)
Seat 1: xx xx 4 5 5____Seat 1 calls
Hero: 4 7 2 6 3___Hero bets
Seat 5: xx xx A 8 5____Seat 5 calls

6th Street: (6.45 BB) (3 players)
Seat 1: xx xx 4 5 5 2____Seat 1 bets
Hero: 4 7 2 6 3 T___Hero calls
Seat 5: xx xx A 8 5 3____Seat 5 checks____Seat 5 calls

7th Street: (9.45 BB) (3 players)
Seat 1: xx xx 4 5 5 2 xx____Seat 1 checks____Seat 1 calls
Hero: 4 7 2 6 3 T 5___Hero bets
Seat 5: xx xx A 8 5 3 xx____Seat 5 checks____Seat 5 calls

Seat 5 is seat 5 from the hand before.

This is basically one of the first hands were I felt I could hand-read properly in a razz game. So I guess I'm kinda posting this just confir my thought process is making sense.

So I'm thinking the raise on 3rd is fine. Seat 5 wont have a better hand that often and based on previous play there would be no reason to suspect that I was doing badly even if he called. So I basically figured you want to be playing pots with the fish in razz just as much on holdem but thinking about it I can properly raise here no matter how good seat 5 is as I have a decently strong hand.

On 4th I was pretty confident that he would bet any 4-card 7 low or better so when he checks I am was pretty certain I was ahead.

5th was an interesting decision I thought. I think I'm clearly behind here and that if I do suspect that he has a made 7 or better I should fold. However if I suspect he has an 8 low at best I can call given the odds I'm given. I'm really uncertain on I should call or fold here though. I just decided that seat 5 had been splashing around enough combined with the check on 4th that I was getting good enough odds to draw against his range.

So with this in mind how would you play 6th? I felt that both leading and c/r was way over-repping my hand but based on my reads on the range I assigned him on 5th I really should c/r to be consistent. At the same time he will know that that at best I can have an 8 low so he can play perfectly and 3-bet me when he has better or if he is good enough he can just 3-bet bluff. So I decided to just c/c but feeling pretty confident that I was ahead.

On 7th I do improve and decide to c/r mainly because I'm beating his 7 low hands so he would have needed to improve to a 6 low to beat me and because I thought he would pay me of with worse as seen when he called a river bet multiway with an 86 low. However, If I'm assuming he had an 8-low before river, and, given his board, it can't be that strong an 8 I thin I miybe should have lead as the chances of him checking back a rough hand here is to big. At least I assume tha correct play would be to check back an rough 8 here?

Poker Stars $0.50/$1.00 Limit Razz $0.05 Ante - 4 players
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

3rd Street: (0.4 SB)
Seat 2: xx xx T____Seat 2 folds
Hero: 5 3 8___Hero completes
Seat 5: xx xx 5____Seat 5 calls
Seat 6: xx xx J____Seat 6 brings in for $0.25____Seat 6 folds

4th Street: (2.9 SB) (2 players)
Hero: 5 3 8 A___Hero bets
Seat 5: xx xx 5 6____Seat 5 checks____Seat 5 calls

5th Street: (2.45 BB) (2 players)
Hero: 5 3 8 A 9___Hero calls
Seat 5: xx xx 5 6 4____Seat 5 bets

6th Street: (4.45 BB) (2 players)
Hero: 5 3 8 A 9 4___Hero checks___Hero calls
Seat 5: xx xx 5 6 4 6____Seat 5 bets

7th Street: (6.45 BB) (2 players)
Hero: 5 3 8 A 9 4 7___Hero checks___Hero raises
Seat 5: xx xx 5 6 4 6 xx____Seat 5 bets____Seat 5 calls

Excellent answer melchy. I think I'll go Stud, Stud8, Razz for now. The extreme difference from NLHE actually makes learning Stud more interesting and fun to me.

Do you think Shaun Deeb's 4 SCOOP bracelets will start a Mixed Games boom? To be honest, part of my interest in these games is that they might be soft. Deeb's performance seems to support this, as well as his comment that most of his opponents are not full time mixed games players. What's really interesting is that I'm hoping the WSOP events are even softer bc well rolled sponsored players are taking -EV shots at a bracelet in a super small field. What do you think?

I'll have to look this over in more detail.