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am i donk? am i donk?

07-10-2009 , 04:49 PM
he is 44/11/1.5 (108)

Full Tilt Poker, $0.05/0.10 Hold'em Cash Games, 5 Players
Hand Converter by Pokerhand.org

Board:
CO: $3.85
Button: $13.31
SB: $10.05
BB: $24.80
UTG: $10.47

Dealt to Button 9 9

Pre-flop:
UTG calls $.10, (1 folds), Button raises to $.40, (2 folds), UTG calls $.30

Flop: ($.95) 9 8 6 (2 Players)
UTG bets $.95, Button raises to $3, UTG calls $2.05

Turn: ($6.95) Q (2 Players)
UTG bets $7.07 and is all-in, Button calls $7.07

Spoiler:
donk?


Spoiler:

River: ($21.09) 5 (2 Players)

Results:
UTG Showed T J
Button Showed 9 9
UTG wins $19.69
am i donk? Quote
07-10-2009 , 04:51 PM
subject name should be "am i donking?"
am i donk? Quote
07-10-2009 , 04:56 PM
Ahhh, I don't see myself playing this differently.
am i donk? Quote
07-10-2009 , 05:11 PM
Standard.

I'd raise more preflop though.
am i donk? Quote
07-10-2009 , 05:12 PM
Even if you KNOW you are behind, you still have 10 outs. That's not enough to call a pot-sized bet, but you can't rule out other sets, 2-pair or someone playing the OESD with the 7. I would call the turn too. Prior to the turn you have no real reason to think that you might not be best (and in fact, you were best and charged for the draw). In fact, the donk bet on the turn looks like a bad bluff. It looks like he is trying to make you fold before you pot-commit yourself with a bet.
am i donk? Quote
07-10-2009 , 05:16 PM
Listen, here's the thing. If you can't spot the donk in the first half hour at the table, then you ARE the donk.

But seriously, this belongs in the Micro NL Forum. FWIW, you played it fine. You're not donk.
am i donk? Quote
07-10-2009 , 05:35 PM
Quote:
Listen, here's the thing. If you can't spot the donk in the first half hour at the table, then you ARE the donk.
Did you make that up?
am i donk? Quote
07-10-2009 , 05:42 PM
He's raising it to 4x BB I don't see the need for much more.
am i donk? Quote
07-10-2009 , 07:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MSmith19
He's raising it to 4x BB I don't see the need for much more.
... plus x1 BB per limper, hence .50 should be the minimum raise amount in this hand preflop.
am i donk? Quote
07-10-2009 , 08:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cry Me A River
Standard.

I'd raise more preflop though.
Sorry but these petty bet size posts tilt the hell out of me. Villain is calling any pre-flop raise up to about 7bb, maybe even 10bb if he's a donk so it makes little difference if he raised it up a bit more and why does hero want to put in so much pre-flop and then potentially miss, c-bet and then fold to a raise on a board which hero has missed on with a bunch of over-cards.

In my opinion, the pre-flop raise is fine, the flop re-raise is fine. The call by villain probably takes away 10 7 and other sets from his potential hands.

On turn only hands that are doing that is QQ in which case we'd expect there to have been a bit more action pre-flop, JT - but even if villain has nuts hero has 10 outs to draw to and a bunch of 2 pairs in which case hero is ahead. I don't think there's a whole lot wrong here, especially not the pre-flop raise.
am i donk? Quote
07-10-2009 , 08:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masq
Sorry but these petty bet size posts tilt the hell out of me. Villain is calling any pre-flop raise up to about 7bb, maybe even 10bb if he's a donk so it makes little difference if he raised it up a bit more and why does hero want to put in so much pre-flop and then potentially miss, c-bet and then fold to a raise on a board which hero has missed on with a bunch of over-cards.
In my opinion, the pre-flop raise is fine, the flop re-raise is fine. The call by villain probably takes away 10 7 and other sets from his potential hands.

On turn only hands that are doing that is QQ in which case we'd expect there to have been a bit more action pre-flop, JT - but even if villain has nuts hero has 10 outs to draw to and a bunch of 2 pairs in which case hero is ahead. I don't think there's a whole lot wrong here, especially not the pre-flop raise.
You do realize that we aren't raising preflop because we want him to fold? Our 99 is miles ahead of villains limp-calling range so we want to put more money in pre-flop as we stand to win more money overall. The advice given was good, and you would be amazed how much more you'll win if you start exploiting fish already in your preflop betting.

Also, you could try to work out the difference between a 4bb and a 5bb bet when it comes down to the river. Even if we only bet half-pot on all streets there will a significant difference on the river, and if we bet ~70% of the pot we will be able to get our stacks in on the river after making it 5 bb, where as a 4 bb raise will require a river overshove. Betsizing is very significant, and this goes for all streets.
am i donk? Quote
07-10-2009 , 09:03 PM
My point is when people just post "bet more" or something like that - it's just a bit meh really.

I know why we're raising and to a lot of people playing UTG a 4bb raise is too much to be playing so we're kind of killing our action. If we want a call the pre-flop raise should be smaller against any sort of decent players. I don't really see 99 as "miles ahead" of villain's range. Villain could easily be limping in with KJ/QJ/KT/QT/JT/A2-9/KQ etc. depending on villain's style and majority of those hands aren't exactly crushed by 99.
am i donk? Quote
07-10-2009 , 09:07 PM
It's definitely just a cooler. Bet sizing is nitpicking.
am i donk? Quote
07-10-2009 , 09:11 PM
well, first of I'm not assuming a UTG limper to be a decent player. Secondly, aren't you contradicting yourself from your previous post where villian would call up to 10bb and know 4 bb is to much?

I have no idea what the range of this villain is, but I think it is fair to assume that 22-88 is also in his range as well as a bunch of smaller SCs. I'm pretty sure we're ahead of this range, and even if he has QJ or something like that we have it alot easier since we're in position so we stand to profit against these hands as well.
am i donk? Quote
07-10-2009 , 09:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by A.Ertbjerg
well, first of I'm not assuming a UTG limper to be a decent player. Secondly, aren't you contradicting yourself from your previous post where villian would call up to 10bb and know 4 bb is to much?
No contradiction. I put a caveat - if villain's a donk they may call up to 10bb. If villain is decent you said we're raising not because we want villain to fold but if villain's decent there's a good chance they'll fold to 4bb raise but may play for less. I also think the assumption that only bad players will limp in UTG is a bit idealistic as not everyone plays standard position poker and are comfortable in their game to play post-flop.
am i donk? Quote
07-10-2009 , 09:37 PM
Ok, I don't think any decent player will limp-fold for 4 bb, ever. He's getting more than 2-1 on his money preflop. Furthermore I really don't mind taking it down pre-flop, but if we are to play a pot I would rather have put in a bit more.

About non-bad players limping UTG and playing non-standard position poker, all I can say is that poker is a position game. If he is actually able to make a profit OOP without initiative then he should probably move up, but that doesn't change the fact that he would be making a lot more if he played his position. I will also say I have yet to encounter a decent player that limp UTG (caveat, you might do it with a monster if there is a maniac that will raise all the time).
am i donk? Quote
07-10-2009 , 10:04 PM
Quote:
Sorry but these petty bet size posts tilt the hell out of me. Villain is calling any pre-flop raise up to about 7bb, maybe even 10bb if he's a donk so it makes little difference if he raised it up a bit more
We win more money, thats reason enough for me...
am i donk? Quote
07-11-2009 , 04:40 AM
Villain is a fish and this is what fish do. They call OOP with easily dominated hands. They call too much to draw. When they hit their draw, they shove all-in so fast they probably cream in their pants.

Still, it's hard to fold a set there. What you do is very dependent on what you know about villain.
am i donk? Quote
07-11-2009 , 11:58 AM
*grunch*

Why not 3 bet flop?
am i donk? Quote
07-11-2009 , 02:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilirubin5
*grunch*

Why not 3 bet flop?
What, his 2-bet isn't enough?
am i donk? Quote
07-11-2009 , 03:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freewill1978
What, his 2-bet isn't enough?
NM, for whatever reason I got the positions of hero and villain switched around.
am i donk? Quote

      
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