Open Side Menu Go to the Top
FAQ Today's Posts Search Twitter Discord
Register
4/2 rule 4/2 rule
Post Reply Subscribe
...
07-28-2014 , 11:25 PM
#1
Blackrob1n
View Profile Send Message Find Posts By Blackrob1n Find Threads By Blackrob1n
enthusiast
Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 51
How accurate is this rule? Im reading it in "Poker math that matters" by Owen Gaines. So far i feel like this rule is invalid most of the time unless im doing something wrong. I did only read through that section once so maybe i missed something, but most of the time the percentage is off by a lot. i mean does it account for back door outs. is there hands that it works the best with.

say
hero: 9 8
villain: is A2

board: A 5 10

hero's equity based on this rule is 24% not counting the back door straight???
yeah right.....
4/2 rule Quote
07-28-2014 , 11:35 PM
#2
thoughtsymmetry's Avatar
thoughtsymmetry
View Profile Send Message Find Posts By thoughtsymmetry Find Threads By thoughtsymmetry
journeyman
Join Date: Jan 2014 Posts: 340
You need to multiply direct outs. Hero doesn't have any direct outs in that hand.

Go to the sticky and look for the 'mathenoobics of poker' thread, it's well explained there.
4/2 rule Quote
07-29-2014 , 05:28 AM
#3
DUCYdonk
View Profile Send Message Find Posts By DUCYdonk Find Threads By DUCYdonk
adept
Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 764
You are saying that the rule would say that you have 24% equity, but that would mean that you have 6 outs. You don't. If you hit your 9, for example, then you still lose, so a 9 is not an out for you. Similarly, if you hit your 8, you still lose, so an 8 isn't an out.

What you actually have is a backdoor straight out and a backdoor 2pair out. The rule of 2 and 4 isn't really designed to include backdoor outs, but if necessary you can sometimes consider backdoor outs to be like 1 out. So, you could say you have backdoor straight and backdoor 2pair outs. That'd be 2 outs, which would suggest 8%. You actually have 6%, but not a terrible estimation.
4/2 rule Quote
07-29-2014 , 06:59 PM
#4
Blackrob1n
View Profile Send Message Find Posts By Blackrob1n Find Threads By Blackrob1n
enthusiast
Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by thoughtsymmetry
You need to multiply direct outs. Hero doesn't have any direct outs in that hand.

Go to the sticky and look for the 'mathenoobics of poker' thread, it's well explained there.
Hey thanks for the tip ill check it out !
4/2 rule Quote
07-29-2014 , 07:01 PM
#5
Blackrob1n
View Profile Send Message Find Posts By Blackrob1n Find Threads By Blackrob1n
enthusiast
Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by DUCYdonk
You are saying that the rule would say that you have 24% equity, but that would mean that you have 6 outs. You don't. If you hit your 9, for example, then you still lose, so a 9 is not an out for you. Similarly, if you hit your 8, you still lose, so an 8 isn't an out.

What you actually have is a backdoor straight out and a backdoor 2pair out. The rule of 2 and 4 isn't really designed to include backdoor outs, but if necessary you can sometimes consider backdoor outs to be like 1 out. So, you could say you have backdoor straight and backdoor 2pair outs. That'd be 2 outs, which would suggest 8%. You actually have 6%, but not a terrible estimation.
Oh, thanks for the correction. I need to get better at reading outs and making % estimations. i started dealing out cards and trying to figure out how many outs i have. hope i get faster. if you have any tips let me know.
4/2 rule Quote
07-29-2014 , 07:07 PM
#6
Richard Parker's Avatar
Richard Parker
View Profile Find Posts By Richard Parker Find Threads By Richard Parker
banned
Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 13,949
Do exactly what you're doing, dealing cards faced up and figuring out what hand beats what.

Here are few examples, and just count number of outs:

H = hero
V = villain

Flop: 533

H: AK
V: 99

-----

Flop: 634

H: 5A
V: 77

-----

Flop: QJ2

H: AT
V: Q9
4/2 rule Quote
07-29-2014 , 09:01 PM
#7
Blackrob1n
View Profile Send Message Find Posts By Blackrob1n Find Threads By Blackrob1n
enthusiast
Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 51
1. 28% (3 A's, 3 K's, 1 back door straight with 2&4)
2. 28% (4 2's, 3 A's)
3. 28% (3 A's, 4 K's)

I think these are right...

In #2 i discounted the 7 because he already has them as pockets and can improve to a boat on turn and river. idk if that's right thinking


With #3 i discounted the back door straight draw with 8&9 because he has a nine and getting one more will improve his had even further if i miss the K or 8.

Am i thinking about it too much or is this all right?
4/2 rule Quote
07-29-2014 , 09:05 PM
#8
Richard Parker's Avatar
Richard Parker
View Profile Find Posts By Richard Parker Find Threads By Richard Parker
banned
Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 13,949
You're on the right track.

Figuring out what beats what is really the first step in poker and the rest pretty much expands from there.

Before you can move on to the next step, above exercise should be second nature.
4/2 rule Quote
07-29-2014 , 09:18 PM
#9
Blackrob1n
View Profile Send Message Find Posts By Blackrob1n Find Threads By Blackrob1n
enthusiast
Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 51
Hey man thanks a lot! I'm going to keep studying
4/2 rule Quote
07-31-2014 , 11:10 PM
#11
Blackrob1n
View Profile Send Message Find Posts By Blackrob1n Find Threads By Blackrob1n
enthusiast
Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 51
Man Thanks a lot guys. I know 2+2 is meant to help people. but i just cant believe how helpful you guys are i have been learning a lot about counting outs and permutations on this forum! thanks again!
4/2 rule Quote
Post Reply Subscribe
...
      
Feedback is used for internal purposes. LEARN MORE
Contact Us Privacy Statement TOS
Top
Powered by:  Hand2Note
Copyright ©2008-2022, Hand2Note Interactive LTD
m